Slovak teeth problems - anyone else?

Louilou · Slovak teeth problems - anyone else?

I'm having to have Grey see a canine orthodontist. I know of one other person with similar serious bite fault issues like Grey's, but have also been hearing that in general they get their teeth very late.

Grey's problems are that his lower jaw is undershot (or is it upper jaw over shot?). His bottom canines puncture his upper palette and he also has punctures in his side gums between the molars.

My general view is that with so few dogs in the gene pool that these issues need to be bred out. With Grey's parents and the parents of the other dog I know that's 2 main stud dogs and 2 breeding bitches, so four in total. There is a current litter for sale with the same pairing as the other dog I've been in contact with.

It would be really helpful to find others with similar bite issues.

Grey's bite:

Bareve

This is more common than you think Surprised

It's happened in the early days of GWP's where one breeder used to get his dogs' teeth "capped" so they didn't mark the gums/roof of the mouth and when the adult teeth come they do manage to grow outside of the top gums in the right slot.

It's quite common in Setters too - lots of panic yet given time they have all come good without any intervention. Vets tend to immediately want to remove the teeth instead of waiting. There was a young bitch sired by well known Gordon Setter dog who had this problem and the breeder moved her on. Come 6 months old she came back for an update and breeder checked her mouth ....... well you can guess the rest Laughing

Goes with the narrow bottom jaw - so breeds who are getting narrow jaws all have a tendency for this to happen with youngsters. Also pretty common in the mini Dachshunds too.

Be interesting to see what the specialist says as he is also a bit over shot (top teeth over bottom teeth). Specialist may suggest you do things like tugger to help the bottom jaw grow a bit longer so as to close the gap. If the gap remains like it is it will also mean that the side teeth may "not" be in the right places for perfection but will be OK for a dog to lead a normal life.

Also bear in mind that should this come correct when he is adult no-one will know that he has had any problems. This is why it is happening as most people aren't truthful with any problems they breed so if it "rights itself" then they certainly aren't going to be truthful and say "but as a puppy his mouth was like XXXX" Hence people will breed with dogs after checking that the mouths are correct, amoungst other things, and that's why these sort of things keep cropping up.

Just my views though Smile

josie

Ow, looks painful Lou, poor Grey.

Our (female!) Grey has good teeth, if that's any use (bit useless for statistics but there we are).

I agree that, if possible, it might be good to wait and see what happens when he has his adult teeth in everywhere. But if he's in pain or discomfort you may not be able to do that Sad

Claire

He does look fairly overshot, however how old is he now? The bottom jaw is the last to stop growing and so to some extent you do want your puppy to be overshot. Whistle's breeder told me once that even at 10mths old she likes to see a puppy slightly overshot because the bottom jaw is still growing.

Maybe his bite will correct itself and therefore the only issue was the speed at which his jaw was growing? Or maybe he will end up slightly overshot. Bites are always a worry until the jaw stops growing. Personally I would want to wait and see how the bite turned out but obviously if he is in a lot of pain then its difficult to know what to do for the best Sad

Good luck!

Louilou

He's 17 weeks now (well tomorrow! Very Happy

). I've spoken to someone else who had similar prob and went to dentist at 12 months. She had been told that it was a shame she had not come sooner. So, for now, am keeping an eye on it. Will take weekly pictures and see how things progress.

He seems fine in himself, which is the main thing.

Lou

weimardan

Just for information - Fuzy did not have any problems and has a good bite.

BritAnnie

Can this breed be shown in the UK? If so I would think dentistry might be a problem - not allowed by the KC I don't think (well not if the dog is to be shown that is)
BA

Louilou

Not allowed to be shown yet in the UK.

Lou

Louilou

Grey will be having his canines out on Friday at Cooper's Vets in Hastings. Sad

So hopefully from there we'll see what the forward plan is. There has been a mention of an acrylic plate. So he really might be having dog braces!

L

windem bang

Sorry to hear of your dogs problem. The very best of luck in the future.

Bill T.

josie

Poor Grey

Does that mean his adult canines?? Is he going to be able to hold a dummy (or game) in his mouth without those? Hope he's ok.

Lisa

Oh lou

So sorry to hear that, poor Grey Crying or Very sad

Louilou

Thanks Bill,

He's very well in himself and full of beans, so that's the main thing.

I was told by his breeder tonight that this is only the 2nd dog to have been reported with this problem. But then a slow developing lower jaw and slow to cut teeth are also known issues. So not sure how other dogs' problems are manifesting.

His breeder seemed to think that removing the canines would allow for the adult teeth to come through and that when his lower jaw catches up things should hopefully right themselves. I think she might be thinking that Grey has an over crowding issue when he doesn't he's overshot.

One to watch on the slovaks.

L

Louilou

Grey is back from the teeth removal in Hastings. All went well. He also said that the rest of his baby teeth have ridged enamel indicative of him being poorly when little. Another thing to look into.

Lou

BenB

Hope he comes right in time - I'm sure he will. One of my spaniels had an overly large soft palate when he was a pup. He grew into it by the age of about 18 months.

Teeth and hooves are a good indicator of previous problems

Louilou

Thought I'd post an update of Grey's (male) teeth issue. His adult teeth came through fine as far as the enamel goes, so that was a relief. His canines didn't come through properly and still pierced the upper palette. So we had an upper side molar removed that was misaligned and blocking where one of the canines was to go. And we had an acryllic plate fitted. Piccies of progress show how well this has gone. We hope to have the plate removed this week we think. It hasn't broken the bank and best of all he gets to keep his adult canines.

Can still see he hasn't cut all his front teeth yet. And the gums will have to heal from wearing the plate. But so far so good.

Alkemist

Only just caught this thread and am reading with interest and if it's OK Lou I'd like to ask a question about the acrylic plate. Is that in any way shape or form going to affect the teeth that are growing through? It looks a marvelous piece of kit and of course because it's a pic I can't tell if it's soft or hard or whatever. I hope you don't mind me asking. And isn't it dreadful that immediately I think I have to say 'OMG it's not for my dogs teeth' afterwards Very Happy

I just find it very interesting the approach that has been taken with the plate.

Thanks
Nina

josie

Lou, does your insurance cover you for all this dental work, it sounds v expensive?? How is the plate held in or attached to his jaw, is there any chance it could come loose if you play tuggy or if he chews on a bone etc? Poor Grey, you can see how sore his gums are in those pics, hope he is better soon.

Louilou

Nope, not covered by my insurance as was a pre-existing condition. I was inexperienced (surprise surprise) when I got him and the holes in his upper palette were picked up at the first vet visit 3 days after we got him. We informed the breeder and are still working out what we want to do about that while we go through all this treatment. It's taken till now to see what we needed to do. First we had baby teeth removed to see if the adult ones might come through ok. They didn't then we did the plate. So until this is finished we had no idea of total cost.

The vet bills haven't been that crazy scary compared to what I expected. It was about 200 odd quid for the plate and a tooth removal. First teeth removed were about 160 I think. A trip for the plate to be cleaned and adjusted about 150. All depends on how he's had to be knocked out.

We go to a dentist in Hastings. We've been really pleased with the results so far. Grey really scared of the place through from the first time he put a paw in the reception. No idea why because he loves our regular vets.

The plate is glued to the teeth. He doesn't have recreational bones and we don't play tuggy with him. Was hard initially as we had to stop him chewing. He was on mince for ages and had no bones to chomp on. Now I let him have lamb ribs again and chicken wings as they're soft. But not allowed anything harder. He's happy with his kong biscuit ball with dried tripe and poultry snacks in it. He'll have ulcers behind it, which the vet says will clear in 3-4 days.

josie

Does he have to wear this forever, Lou, or is this supposed to be a temporary thing whilst his teeth grow?

Legally, your breeder sold you goods which were not fit for the purpose they were sold for, so you have every right to take things further. Have you also told the breed club? Perhaps you could even run an article in the Slovak mag about his teeth (of which I've received about 1 copy in the 2 yrs I've been a member!).

tashap

hav to say reading this it looks like a clear case of shoddy breeding. Do you know much about the history of the line? Did any of the other dogs have bad mouths?? If they are still breeding from the same stock then this is only going to be a problem which gets worse not better. What a shame.

josie

Several of the litter siblings of the stud had mouth/bite problems and the breeder has been told and continues to use this stud a lot... If anyone wants more info, PM either me or Lou!

Louilou

I totally missed this post, Josie! I wonder why I don't get email notifications sometimes? Ah, well. Will just have to check out more often! Very Happy

I thought I would post an update on Grey's teeth trouble. I've had several friends look at him now and everyone has said that they think he's still troubled with his mouth. Either memory of all the trouble/treatment and also that his teeth are still impacting on each other. At the front there is a definite clash of teeth touching each other and there is impact of the left lower canine on the upper gumline.

Apparantly he hates his headcollar in a different way to normal. It really upsets him. But I can't do much about it as I can't handle him without it on. The other issue is that is it possible the teeth are affecting his ability to learn and train when out?

Anyway, here are the latest pictures. I'm very upset at a latest publication, which details the supposed teeth issues in the breed and is really not correct. It is written by the breeder who is now the representative for health issues. I find this hard to understand.

Contrary to the publication information, I was not sold him as a pet and pet price. Nor have I had an offer of a refund. The only 'offer' I received was to take him back when he was 5 months old which I clearly would not do. If anyone tells anyone that slovaks as a breed get their teeth late and these issues right themselves, that is outrageous. My canine dentist laughed when I told him. There is the breed and breeding. Very different things. Obviously if I had known better then I would have spotted it and not gone along with the whole thing. But by then he was my dog and I love him to bits.

weima

I really don't understand the Slovak club allowing the breeder of Grey to be the Health Rep Shocked

I don't see a rosy future for the breed with shocking breeding ethics like this whereby everything is bred from irrespective of health/faults

Louilou

I know I've had a personally bad experience, but to see my problem played down in public and misrepresented means that someone else might, like me, think that a problem in a young pup will resolve itself as the pup grows. Grey has had to have such a lot of vet visits, sedation, GA and attention on his mouth it's unfair. They have also stated that there are categorically no further health issues to those listed in the newsletter. This is simply not true. I myself have been in touch with other people who have had bad pain issues to deal with other than Grey's brother and these are not on the list of known issues. The info printed is a straight forward copy and paste from the breeders website. So obviously not been checked before going out.

When I politely asked for the details to be corrected a few months ago I was threatened with legal action! There's aftercare for you.

weima

And have you expressed your concerns to the Accredited Breeder Scheme?

Louilou

Not yet. I've been putting it off because it's so annoying. I think some people think I have already contact KC, but I haven't. So perhaps I'm not alone.

weima

I think you ought to otherwise this is just going to keep on happening and the way the KC are going they are wanting ALL dog breeders to be part of the ABS but having looked at the AB listed for my breed there are some that shouldn't have the accolades they have been given so the ABS aren't policing it very well at all IMO

Louilou

Sigh. It looks like you are right. I'll have to see about it.

Louilou

Oh dear. There seems to be much closing of ranks going on in all quarters. Sometimes it isn't comfy sticking the old head above the parapet.

terrier

Its all down to greed ! If the dogs carrying the faults were taken out of the breeding program think of the money they would lose from stud fees or puppy sales.breeding for money makes me feel sick !

weima