Some advice please

The Croc · Some advice please

I am just looking at the moment, at GWPs and HWVs or maybe a Spinone
as a possible next dog (maybe) any views on them, to be used for Beating, Pigeon, Wildfowling

I have read about one breed is "soft" and another is "hard" is this training related? and what age do they mature, early like Labs and Spaniels or late like FCRs

Brian

munstyman

Hi Brian,
I tried to resist answering your post (but couldn't) In the HPR world we all think our choosen breed are the best for the work you suggest. Some of us are right Wink

.
The reference to `hard' and `soft' is usually a reference to the general temperament of a breed, however this should only be taken as a generalisation, all dogs are individuals so you will get hard dogs amongst `soft' breeds and visa versa. My best advise would be to see as many of the dog breeds that catch your eye in the working environment and talk to as many of their owners as possible to see if they are right for you.
My experience of having labs, spaniels and L.Ms are that HPR's are later maturing and require a longer period of training than labs and spaniels, with training continuing well into their working lives.
Now wait for the deluge of forum users with breeds you did not mention Exclamation

Peter

josie

Oh yeah, you know you really want a Weimaraner Wink

Why don't you go along and watch at a gundog working test this summer? You should see GWPs at quite a few - might be harder to see Spins and HWVs though.

Details of working tests are here: http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/HPRFTINFO

Mike

Brian,

It depends on what you mean by maturity, I am assuming you mean how long do they take to train? Rather than how quick to grow?

In James Spencers book "Point! Training the all season bird dog" He has a useful 10 chapters or so comparing the different North American bird dogs, the uses they are put to and the differences between the show and field lines. Without exception the dogs with more show blood in them mature significantly later than the field bred dogs (and are usually significantly bigger than the field types as well). So whilst they may be slightly slower to mature than field bred labs and spaniels, I would think if you went for a "proper" working example, rather than one with a mix of show and working lines in them, (maybe the offspring of an import?) it might mature more quickly than a UK dual purpose dog? (quiet happy to be shot down in flames on that one if I am wrong!)

Am I right in thinking that the GWP is the hard dog and the HWV is the soft dog with the spinny in between? My take on hard vs. soft is that it is an indication of the amount of correction they can tolerate (require?) as well as how single minded they are.

I freely admit I am not fully aware of the temprement of the three breeds you mention, but I am curious why you would want a hunting dog for pigeon shooting and wildfowling? Many of the HPR's I have seen get bored relatively easily and aren't hugely tolerant of waiting around for long periods of time (which pigeon shooting and wildfowling often entail?) whilst I am not saying that they can't be trained to do it, I suspect they will be significantly harder to train to do it well than a breed that has been bred to do it.

Helen

My experience lies with gwp's. I've got 2, a 5 year old and a 9 month old. I found that the older gwp matured quicker than the youngster. Whether that has anything to do with sex as the older one is a dog and the youngster a bitch. Harvey, the oldest, was working on the grouse at 10 months old but I can't see that with Teal. She will be taken to the grouse but she isn't ready to do a full count.

I personally don't think beating is any good for an hpr, unless, it is a shoot that understands them. I was talking to someone with a gwp at a scurry yesterday and he was saying that he has never worked him, he's just a pet. He said that when they are out on walks, the gwp will go on point and his lab with rush in and flush, or peg! He said that after that happens, the gwp isn't happy to point, which is understandable. I know the shoots that I go beating on, there is no place for an hpr.

Retrieving, I've never had any problems with mine. Harvey isn't required to retrieve but he will retrieve dummys and game when I've thrown it for him. Teal has just started retrieving training and I can't see any major problems with her (touch LOTS of wood now!).

My husband is keen to do some wildfowling and Teal is going to be his dog for that, hopefully.

Helen

The Croc

Hi all thanks for the replies
Munsty thats what I wanted to know that HPRs mature late, unlike Labs and most Spaniels (I'm refering to mine) as I say I'm only looking at the moment to find out, hence I'm on this forum

Where was your area of N.Devon?

Josie I will do that.

Mike by maturity I mean when the settle down and are "dependable and reliable" cough cough, and are not scatty, as for the Hard and Soft I haven't a clue I was hoping some of the knowledgeable people on here might be able to to tell me.
As I said in my intoduction I had one damn good Spaniel "Bruce" see the website, I now have one that hasn't matured and is very hard and independent, and I'll leave it there.
I was looking at HPRs as I'm not a Lab fan but could do with a bigger dog for fowling but that is not afraid of cover, if right I would like to train an HPR to hunt similar to a Spaniel and be calm similar to a Lab to sit whilst in a hide, Pigeon or Fowling. An FCR has been suggested but again not for Beating

To see "Bruce" look under Sporting Shooter on the website

Taw & Torridge wildfowlers

http://www.ttwildfowlers.50megs.com/home.html

munstyman

Hi Croc,
I'm a Brauntonian, so I come from the civilised side of the river Exclamation

The thing about HPR's is their inherant ability to do most things, hence the comment about them being `jack of all trades'. For them to become `masters' in the work that you want to do you have to put in the training and learn to be part of a team.
Peter

Allyson

If HPRs have a short attention span, then why use them for deerstalking when, as I understand it, there is a great deal of hanging around doing nothing?

Hard v soft, semantics, mean differing things to different people, some would substitute wilful, stubborn, biddable etc etc depending on what you would like to imply to others or what you might want others to infer from your adjectives.......... Wink

Weims generally have the reputation for being the "hardest" of the HPR group and gundogs as a whole from what they were originally bred for, however, as most are now either pets or for tottering around the show ring most of their original outlook on life has been deliberately bred out of them. Otherwise they would not make suitable pets for the majority.

(Puts on tin helmet) Very Happy

GWPs would come next. Not met many HWHV but it is my understanding that they would be a tad stronger than the "regular" HV. All the Spinones I have met have been dead soppy! Very Happy

(puts on flak jacket) Very Happy

Maturity, depends on what you mean, 3 is what is generally considered "mature" for most breeds in the HPR category, I don't like adjectives such as "scatty" ets which to me implies a failing of the dog when generally it is a failing of the trainer ie the dog is under employed and/or confused etc.

It takes longer to train an HPR for its job because it has more than one to perform, unlike some other breeds.

All of the above comments are written from a general perspective on the breeds and training and are not "gundog/field" specific...........

You might be best talking to someone who owns/ trains a large number of differing breeds successfully for the field who can give you the benefit of their expertise such as Rory Major (brilliant dog man) etc...........

Marty_j

The Croc

Munsty
I'm from Barum, like you the civilised side.
As your a Brauntionian you might recognise this place

http://www.ttwildfowlers.50megs.com/sporting_shooter.htm

Brian

munstyman

Ahh, I can smell the estuary mud ousing out of the computer Smile

( Normally the parents smell it off the dogs at Christmas, They love galloping through it at low tide on the Caen inlet).
A couple of christmas's ago I noticed someone was feeding the small pond on Chivenor bottom marsh, was that you guys? Last christmas the feeders did not seem to be being used although I did hear someone fowling around the Penhill area on the run up to Christmas ( I usually walk the dogs at dawn and dusk so any shooting I hear I assume its the T&T Cool

Peter

The Croc

No thats not us feeding the pond, theres a syndicate that has all the fields up to White House on the Burrows side and everything on the other side back to the Airfield.

We have everthing below mean low water, and that would of been the T&T on Penhill or even the Caen

Brian

munstyman

Thanks for that Brian, Which is the main `watering hole' for the T&T Question

and maybe the next time I'm down I'll call in Smile

You might even be persuaded to add a LM to your list Cool

In the interest of stirring up the rest of the forum, have you concidered a Chessy Question

Peter

The Croc

We don't have a main "Watering Hole" but we do use the Aggie for the AGM and committee meetings

I did look at a Monsterlander and figured it was ideal until I met one at the West Country Game fair, it was huge I thought it was a black and white Shire horse, are the females smaller cos that might be the answer.

Talking of the West Country fair I'll put a new thread on the General forum

A Chessie would be a no no on a couple of counts one being they have a very independent streak and I want something that I can train with out too much stress, secondly I dont think my Boxer would take to kindly to one ( another story)

Let us know when your down next peter maybe I'll meet you for a lemonade or two.

munstyman

tashap

tin helmet and jacket... haha! Laughing

Most of the good dogs that I have seen on the shoots have been and I hate saying this, honest I REALLY REALLY do but GSP, the wirehairs tend to be a tad grumpy with otherdogs so aren't invited back on most of ours and that one that is, is UNDER strict control and aged about 5 so is very very well trained (should be his owner is an army dog trainer).

The spins I have seen have struggled they are too big for most of the shoots especially for beating and shooting purposes, great if you can find one that has lots of open ground. You need to be aware of the lines as well some still have serious health problems with their large bone development similar to the problems faced by danes.

Personally I'd opt for a weimaraner but then I like a challenge and being told that my dog won't hunt Laughing

Thats why I'm getting a cocker spaniel! Cool

The Croc

Tashap

Any dog that I finally decide on will have to cope with Fowling on the Foreshore and Beating, don't think (speaking with no knowledge as usual)
that a Weim or GSP could put up with a the cold water when Fowling or the brambles etc when beating.

Peters Munstys are looking increasingly favoured at the moment.

Peter do they kennel alright? and obedience aside and taken for granted would they be mature enough at ....say 12months to work?

Brian

josie

Just out of curiosity, if I can ask - why not a lab? Beating - wildfowling - sounds ideal??

The Croc

Josie
I'm not a great fan of Labs, they're either getting fat or they're just dawdling around.

Brian

josie

Just as well this is a HPR forum!! Very Happy

I probably won't persuade you, but the working labs I've seen have definitely not been fat or dawdley though - v high energy, in fact. Very Happy

lagopuslagopus · breed specific discussions

Brian,

Two of my Munsters were out working at a year but it just depends on the dog and the training - they are all different. As long as you get one from lines that are keen retrievers and very natural pointers you will have a head start.

munstyman

Hi Brian,
From my experience munsties would not be mature enough to work at 12 months, whilst I give them experience of their expected work as early as possible its a case of make haste slowly.
I only start to really work mine in `anger' in their third to forth year depending on when they were born. Most of the working problems I have delt with often stems from pushing the dog into the shooting environment before it is ready.
Kenneling.....how close are your neighbours? Munsties have a vocal reputation Shocked

and like to be involved with their `family'. Having said that mine are quiet except on guard duty, so I guess it has alot to do with my dogs knowing their place and are comfortable in their environment, they stay in the house and have beds in cages which gives me the flexibility of isolating them should circumstances dictate.
Some lines have double coats which gives them even more durability in cold water.....take out shares in Dyson though when they moult Laughing

I bet those Labradors are looking sweeter by the minute Exclamation

Peter

The Croc

Hi Peter

All good stuff comng up on this thread, its looking less likely at the moment that I'll be looking for an HPR in the near future, maybe get one in a few years time and bring it on to co-incide with current dog getting older

AS for a Lab I'll get one of those when I'm in my dotage (who was that at the back that said " you already are"). Until then, whenever then is, I'll stay with real Hunting dogs, HPRs and Spaniels of all types

Now puts on Tin hat and runs for cover Laughing

Brian

munstyman

Hi Brian,
Do the T&T hold an `open/fun day' which include a dog test? Could be useful to get a variety of dogs together for `comparison purposes' as well as fund raising, PR etc. I'm sure several of the forum would want to show how good their breeds are Wink

I would even concider coming down in grockle season and fighting my way through the great Barum traffic jam Laughing

Peter

The Croc

Peter
Sounds a great idea

We used to have a fun gun dog scurry at the annual clay shoot, all we do at the moment is organize a couple of displays at the North Devon Show.
Only Spaniels and Retreivers. August 1st if any ones interested
( See web page )

Our clay shoot isnt until September, I'll see if we can't have a scurry as well

The T & T started and organized the Countryside Tent and arena bringing Countrysports to the show, we started with a small tent and arena at the back, but because it was so popular we have been moved nearer the middle

http://www.ttwildfowlers.50megs.com/Shows.html

Brian

munstyman

August 1st, thats just after CLA, probably won't have recovered in time for that, but September looks promising as long as its not the first two weekends (Committee meeting and training group). I should warn you though I am president of the Clay Pigeon Preservation Society Rolling Eyes

Peter

The Croc

Peter

I've just remembered our Chairman runs a Team Challenge at his place, each team comprises 4 people : A Clay shoot for all team members, A couple of Dog Scurrys for 2 of the team and Air Rifle shooting for the other 2. This has gone for this year (June)

If theres interest will see if we can have a scurry at the clay shoot.

Or maybe an HPR display at the North Devon Show ( Next Year)

Brian

The Croc

Peter
If your the President I must be right hand man Laughing

Brian

Some advice please

breed specific discussions