Spanish Water Dogs

windem bang · Spanish Water Dogs

Today at a dog show I saw my first ever Spanish Water Dog, it was close cropped and I thought it looked great. I read what's available on the internet about it and discovered it has been included by the K.C. among the H.P.R. breeds even although by no means all of them are natural pointers. This breed interests me, I've read all the breed blurb and know better than to unquestioningly believe it.

Nevertheless this breed seems to have a lot going for it, they really are versatile. I said this to a pointer lady at the show and she too had been interested in the breed until further research showed various hereditary defects. Her feeling was that the gene pool is too small to easily improve on these defects. Do any of the forum members have any knowledge of this breed?
I formed the impression from talking to the dogs owner that they work fast but rather like spaniels, she was also honest enough to say that her dog will not retrieve anything.

I'd love to see one working and I gather there already is a gundog club for this breed in this country --- coming to a trial near you soon Exclamation

Bill T.

kiwi

i disagree with them being classed as a versitile breed, i have a boxer here that runs well with my wires,even backing a point, has hunted pigs and will swim as well as any gundog but at the end of the day she is still a boxer.

windem bang

Your probably right Kiwi, surely MOST of a breed should point naturally before it is included in the H.P.R. group? I still would like to train one though, something about them appeals to me and I don't mean they look cuddly!

Bill T.

Ghilliegumdrop

Well you could get more of those in the back of the Berlingo..... Rolling Eyes

Helen

I am sure there is someone on a message board (Sporting Countryside), who has them. I think she is starting to work them, or at least train them to work.

Helen

windem bang

I looked this breed up on the internet, in this country a group of enthusiasts are already training them as gundogs. I read between the lines and would say they are being trained more or less as labradors. An H.P.R. judge who watched them work was impressed by their ability - but - I don't think pointing was involved. The water retrieving did impress me, that plus a very useful size for many people. I've seen quite a few dogs swim underwater and retrieve but none of them were H.P.R.'s. I can think of a good few rough shooters who might like this dog breed.... IF it will point!!!

Bill T.

Ghilliegumdrop

There is someone on Champdogs who has these dogs, she is a friend of someone who breeds Brittanys!!!

munstyman

We had a group of SWD's come to a Nat. Apt. ( I was told later that they were there to prove that they were not HPR's Exclamation

) Only one of the dogs showed any natural hunting ability in the HPR way, the others were much more in the retriever mode.
I guess they suffer from the KC reaction towards the european breeds being put in anything other than the HPR Group Exclamation

I would like to see a trained one work in the field though, just to see what it was capable of, as it does not seem to fit any particular role or specialty......perhaps that makes it a `versatile' Idea

Peter

shooting.services

hi windem bang

here at spanaffy my girlfriend and i have been working swd as gun dogs on driven pheasant and partridge for the past 4 years, she is one of the people mentioned in Paul Rawlinsons new book about working gun dogs. i have been involved with the shooting community for 30 years and have been training and working gun dogs on large commercial shoots for the last 16 years and have been involved with my girlfriends swd for the past year or so. her oldest dog she had to train herself as she was unable to find a trainer that would take her seriously and help her train the dog and while she is a very competent gun dog with the right training she could have been fantastic. ours do not point and work more like spaniels, they will brave any cover and have a tremendous amount of stamina. this year was the first time on the grouse moor and the dogs have been used both on the flank and as peg dogs at the butt, i have also taken them out on my picking up team, the oldest is a very capable retriever of game however she will not now retrieve dummies. i helped train at a training class in Shropshire and had a number of swd attend with novice gun dog owners and the dogs excelled at the classes, one went on to beat 30 springer's, cocker's and labs at a fun scurry doing long, speed and double retriever's to shot and recalls.
the only downside is that some lines have a very strong herding instinct and as such are enthusiastic at chasing ground game (and have the speed to catch it as well) and are not the best retriever's. i have no doubt that the breed will steadily gain more and more popularity with the shooting community who nowadays are looking for gun dogs that also double as the family pet. they are biddable dogs and are very faithful and eager to please. at the moment the breed is not fully recognised which is why they have not been trialled, however in my professional opinion with the right training techniques there is no reason why a swd could not compete in minor spaniel trials with success. if you would like to discuss the breed in more detail then please contact me , or look on our website which has a bit more about what we do with the dogs.

cheers

shooting.services

www.freewebs.co.uk/spanaffy

PS The only known health issues with the breed is a predisposition for glaucoma. However in the last 15 years that the breed has been in the UK there has only been a couple of dogs with this condition. Most of these dog where the first imports to this country and have subsequently passed away. One of these dogs confidently retrieved over land and water with verbal commands whilst being totally blind having lost his sight in later life. They are now hip scored to monitor HD although there have only a couple of dogs within the breed HD in recent years. as for a small Gene pool that cant eliminate health issues there are frequently new line being imported in to the UK having passed health tests abroad.

BritAnnie

I can see the attraction for you, Bill. They are so cute Wink

A coat to give you something to groom on the cold dark nights when you can't train the Buckaroo, Wink

a dog that will retrieve like it's going out of style - like you need that Rolling Eyes

They are a teeny weeny bit like poodles, don't you think? Rolling Eyes

BA

windem bang

They probably form a large part of a poodles genetic inheritance. I trained a poodle cross border collie once and he was a doddle to train - as long as you could give him enough to do. He bent over backwards to be biddable, as long as he was working he was happy. If this breed is anything like him I'd probably like one! Grooming would not be a problem, they're supposed to get sheared once in a while , not combed - even I can do that!

Bill T.

shooting.services

they dont shed which is why they are clipped and not brushed, and you ae right in your observation that they are in the background of the poodle.

BritAnnie

So I guess they would be good for families with allergic kids? I know a couple of folk who work their dogs but because of asthma the dog has to live outside.
BA

shooting.services

briarlow

POODLES, POODLES Exclamation

Here's one of my "Poodles" Laughing

briarlow

Regarding the breed being good for people with allergies not quite so! Like every single breed people need to spend a day with a breed to see if the one that they are interested in is one that they are not allergic to. Just because they don't moult doesn't mean that they are helpful to people with allergies, although over the years I've sold three to people who had terrible allergies and then been fine with their Spanish.

briarlow

Here's another one of my guys!

Oh and Ash thanks for the great introduction of the breed!

Now a couple of mine do point although like Jo I've never really had the chance (pardon the pun) to prove the point!

briarlow

windem bang

I know all breeds have breed characteristics and attention should be paid to them. I.M.O. though knowing these characteristics does not mean that the dogs individual characteristics should be ignored. No breed of dog or individual dog likes rough handling. That does not mean that a deliberately disobedient dog should get away with its' bad behaviour. As a trainer I like best those dogs that try their best to please and need very little physical correction.

The dogs I've had have been the usual mixture of traits and characteristics and I've just had to get on with it and train them. If this meant a good shake once in a while, that's what the individual dog got. I had a lab bitch who was only once in her life given a shake, she was nutcase keen but went out of control in a root field full of pheasants during a trial. I was put out of the trial but would probably have been put out of many more with her if it had not been for the helpful judges who could see what was needed and left me behind in that field. I was supposed to be looking for an unfound bird. This bird did not exist! The judges were deliberately giving me the chance to correct my bitch in the field where she'd gone out of control. With a nod and a wink I was instructed to look for the bird and make the most of it! I did and she never needed corrected in that manner again. This bitch qualified for the Retriever Championships. Yes, she got a good shaking and shouting but I don't think that makes me a harsh handler. Very often one good hard correction given at exactly the right time and place is far more effective and in the end kinder than a whole lot of small ineffectual corrections.

Too small a correction decreases a dogs body sensitivity , it will then need progressively harder ones. It can become a vicious circle. I try, if a physical correction is needed, to give one to suit that individual dog.

I agree with you about too much early strict obedience, I like my dogs to learn as they go and quite often I temporarily put aspects of obedience to one side and deliberately err in favour of enthusiasm. The man who taught me the most about gundogs always said, " I wouldn't give you tuppence for a dog that never tried to run in!" I keep this in mind for retrieving and other things while training or working a dog.

Where socialisation is concerned I don't mind a dog that is aloof with strangers. My present pup is too well " socialised!" he still thinks the whole world is his friend! That seems to include people, dogs, cats and even sheep! He tries to start up a game with any of these at any time. He has been more difficult to train not to chase dogs than not to chase rabbits!

I think that giving a dog something to do that keeps its' brain occupied applies to just about every working breed, idle heads make mischieve!
Rolling Eyes

Bill T.

shooting.services

briarlow

Well with having them for 15 years, I can safely say that two of mine do! Carmen and of course the first one that I did a bit of gundog training with Lydia.

OK not all of them do and I hold my hands up to this, but from what I've seen of Spaniels they don't actually work like them either.

Maybe it's time to have an extra subsidiary (brains not working today, can't think of the right word) like they do in Europe and have water dogs, as I do feel that the Spanish have a place in the gundog group and can work as a number of them do as gundogs.

Some of the latter HPR breeds don't work quite like the original breeds did either.

Oh and this isn't a heated message or anything just really interested in other peoples thoughts etc Laughing

windem bang

Sorry to butt in here but with respect it sounds like - " some do, some don't, some will, some won't!" I like the breed very much but I'd need a bit more than that as an assurance before I bought one with H.P.R. work in mind. I.M.O. before this breed can be properly said to belong to a class of gundogs, you, the breeds present fanciers will have to decide among yourselves what they should be expected to do in the field. Are they spaniels, are they retrievers or are they H.P.R.'s.?

This is only my opinion of course but I've spent a lifetime training gundogs and working them - shooting men and women like to know that the breed they are buying is likely to be suitable for purpose.

Bill T.

briarlow

That's what we are doing Laughing

Some think Spaniels and some are thinking HPR. Maybe a few of us should get together and go to some aptitude tests like we did a number of years ago and see how we get on, but will that be accepted?

The KC have us in the HPR group at the moment as though of us who first brought them in took them to a few aptitude tests which was mainly HPR run and we had letters from the Clubs to say that they were suitable for that group.

The only reason I mentioned the "water group" is because there are a few more breeds in the country now that are in group 8 in Europe as water dogs and I suppose if it gets easier in 2009 to bring dogs to and fro from the continent that there may be even more.

BritAnnie

I know the KC are a law unto the KC, but how did they come to the conclusion they were HPRs if most of them don't point?
BA

shooting.services

This discussion is taken from the application to the American Kennel Club for participation of SWDs in hunting tests and trials and pertains to which style of hunting the SWD was expected to perform.
The SWD Club finds it difficult to limit the SWD into the Spaniel- or Retriever-style tests. This is a breed which historically performed both functions. It works equally well on land as a flushing dog and in the water as a retriever of water fowl. In El Nuevo Libro del Perro de Agua Español, Gómez-Toldrà tells us, “… a dog will pass the entire day working with a stockman, it is said, as a shepherd dog, with all that he must bear (vigilance that no sheep is misplaced or wrestle against predators such as wolves or foxes) also would be capable of accompanying his [owner] on a hunt, because so many are able to turn to the water to capture a duck just like returning with a rabbit or a hare.”

It is commonly accepted that the Spanish Water Dog hunted. However in contrast to information on the breed’s primary function as a herding dog, comparatively little historical documentation exists which shows just how the dog was used as a hunting dog, and much of what we’ve learned is through conversation rather than in print.

According the Antonio Garcia Perez, the majority of this breed were used as herders, with a small and historically late population in the north used similarly to Portuguese Water Dogs on fishing boats. He recalls family members who herded with their SWDs during the day, and hunted with them after the herds were secured for the evening.

Spanish Water Dogs were owned by poor country folk who could not afford dogs specialized in only one task. Hunting was conducted after the flocks were secured for the evening. Hunting was for subsistence, not for sport. In lean times, dogs were expected to forage for themselves.

The SWD as a Flushing Dog
As the majority of SWDs were herding dogs, and as flocks were kept out of the marshlands, SWDs were used on dry land to hunt rabbits and upland fowl. The dogs flushed the animal, the hunter shot the animal, and the dog retrieved the animal. Owners hunted on foot, not on horseback, and the dogs stayed at a comfortable and easy distance from their owners while working.

The breed is also known to excel in air-scenting. Modernly, the Spanish Water Dog is widely trained for Search and Rescue work in Europe and Scandinavia.

Some people in the SWD community would like the breed to not be remembered as a dog that works on land. They fear that the ‘first thing to go will be the coat.’

Antonio Garcia Perez’s webpage states, “There are some that try to use the Spanish Waterdog as a hunting dog which is a marvelous tracker and retriever, but there is the major inconvenience of its natural wool. The wool is very dense and gets caught very easily in all types of underbrush. We have even some dogs trapped by their own wool to the point that they couldn't even move. To go out into the country with a waterdog one must have in mind the type of terrain that they are going to traverse and what time of year it is. Short wool is ideal for the countryside but you must keep in mind that a short hair dog will never swim or dive as well as long hair dog.”

SWD News Briefs:
July 2007 AKC approves the Spanish Water Dog for participation in Herding tests and trials beginning January 1, 2008.

March 2007 SWD Club applies for breed inclusion in AKC Performance Events: Herding: tests and trials
Hunting: Spaniel tests and trials
Hunting: Retriever tests and trials

this is what the American club are doing they don't recognize the Spanish as a HPR At at all and with the greatest respect to you you may well have had the bread for 15 years but i did do all my homework when asked to Assist in the training of our dogs

windem bang

I find it odd that Mr. Perez thinks that having long hair helps a dog to swim and dive. The best swimming and diving dogs I've had or seen have all been labradors. I.M.O. a long coat can help keep a dog warmer while swimming or waiting between swims to retrieve game but would not actually improve its swimming or diving abilities. I think a dense coat is useful but a really long coat would actually hinder diving. It is no accident that animals like otters have short but dense coats.
If I had one of these dogs and I do still have a strong liking for them, I would keep it close cropped all the time for work on land or water and would disregard any showring fads or fancies that might arise.
There is very little chance of them ever being widely used in this country as a herding or guarding dog. I.M.O. their abilites as hunters and retrievers should be even more strongly bred for and promoted. I would forget all about herding and guarding, they are not in Spain now.
Just a "working" mans' point of view.

Bill T.

Bill T.

briarlow

Also Antonio was one of the people that ensured that the breed in America stayed as gundogs not as working dogs as some people wanted over there. You are right, most people when working them as gundogs do keep their coats short.

Oh and I do know all of the above and have studied the breed too for the last 15 years!

Mike

josie

...and there are pointing labradors in the US....

Mike

Shh... Jo, Windem Bang will want one of those!!! It'd be his perfect dog!!! Twisted Evil

Ghilliegumdrop

What about the Border Collie, that has been known to point, hunt and retrieve Twisted Evil

If Bill had one of those he could get some of those wild Haggi that are up in his neck of the woods Very Happy

windem bang

Windem Bang already has the book! I've seen pointing labs in this country,one or two lines seem to produce them. These labs are, I think, a bit of a throwback to a popular cross of a century ago, lab x pointer. The pointing labs I've seen, with only one exception, have been "pointery" in type. One of them even had a slightly dished face, she belonged to a friend of mine and was of very good field trial lines. She won a novice retriever trial and would also work a grouse moor as a pointer - oh boy! could she run!!! She'd have knocked the spots off even a pretty good G.S.P.!!! If she'd been allowed to run in an H.P.R. trial I'd have bet everything I had on her winning. Imagine a dog that will handle like a lab, has a labs love of retrieving and swimming and a lovely soft mouth but which will run like a pretty good pointer! As a pointer I would say she was often inclined to point from a bit closer to the game than I would like but no doubt this could have been worked on.

My friend took her no further in retriever trials than novice for she would sometimes point unshot game during a retrieve. A smashing bitch - wish she was mine!

Bill T.