| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| mojo |
ST GERMAIN POINTING DOGHi Everyone !!Did you hear about this breed ? The standard says it's a half-blood of English pointer. By that way, it's the only breed I heard you can officialy cross with english pointer. My SGPD has an EP as grand father. Let me introduce my young SGPD ASIA DES FEUX MIGNONS (13 Month old). 
She's very powerfull and huntress. I think I will enter her in the next autumn trials. Chris |
||||||
| tashap |
Braque Saint-Germain ?
Why are you still allowed to cross with an english pointer? The breeds been around since the 1700's according to some of the sites by now it should be an established breed shouldn't it without the need for further crossing? |
||||||
| BritAnnie |
If still being back-crossed this breed won't be able to be registered in the UK with the KC.
Annie |
||||||
| chiendog |
Because permission was sought and recieved for sound genetic reasons.
According to some sites, the earth is flat and homeopathy is a "science". The Braque Saint Germain has existed "officially" since the French kennel club first recognized it in the late 1800's. Prior to that it was just another variety of Braque Francais. There are of course fanciful tales of it being bred by and for kings but even as far back as 1914 that myth was being questioned by the then president and breed historian of the club. The history of the BSG presented on most sites is like that of most other breeds: half truths and wishful thinking.
The BSG has had its share of ups and downs over the last 150 years. Currently it is in dire straights. Most of the serious field breeders have abandoned the breed (including Mr. Thibeault, a fellow who has done more for the hunting BSG than anyone else in the last 50 years). Show breeders now dominate the breed and are well on their way to ruinining it completely. Judicious crosses to Pointers is, in my opinion, the only sensible thing left to do. Howver, I have to wonder who will undertake the program and see it to a favorable result. Christophe's bitch is the last of the line that Mr. Thibeault dedicated 20 years of his life to develop. I sincerely hope that Christophe will breed her to one of the very few remaining males that are still worthy of the breed name. If he does, I may be on the list for a pup. Let's remember that the BSG is not the only breed that has benefited or will benefit from a cross to another related breed. I know of at least a dozen other breeds that are in similar situations and a number of others that were there at one time and have survived as hunting breeds thanks to sound cross-breeding programs. And we should also remember that hunting breeds are created and (should be) maintained by hunters. Kennel club recongnition is not necessarily something that everyone wants or needs. I am not very familiar with the Kennel Club in the UK or its effect on the various hunting breeds but I do know that several breeds such as the Pudelpointer and Large Munsterlander for example aboslutely do NOT want recognition from registries such as the AKC which they regard as the kiss of death for working breeds. The Braque Saint Germain is recognized by the SCC in its native country and by the FCI internationally. I would think that is quite enough for breeders whose main concern should be restoring and maintaining the breed's hunting qualities and not its chance for a best of show at Crufts. Sorry if I sound smarmy, but the BSG is a breed that I greatly admire. It breaks my heart to see the condition it is in right now. |
||||||
| windem bang |
I read this post with great interest, I.M.O. our great grandfathers were far more sensible and far seeing people than we are today, where dog breeding is concerned. The K.C. was just getting started and I am quite sure if our G.G.Fathers had even the slightest inkling of what it would do to working dogs they would have drowned it at birth !
They wanted dogs that would work and the ones that could not were ruthlessly discarded infavour of those that could. As an example of this take a look at the labrador. Not the totally exaggerated show type which even if it still retained the drive to work is far too heavily built to do so effectively. ( Thats K.C. breed standards for you !) Our ancestors started with a dog which was,I think, called the Saint John's Dog . The description given of it at that time was "the St. John's Dog, swift to run, swift to fight." Our ancestors could see the potential usefulness of parts of this dogs make up, it's compact strength and speed, it's water resistant coat and it's love of retrieving, but there were bits they wanted to improve on. They had to get rid of it's aggression to other dogs, this had probably been a useful survival trait where it originated,but not here. It is likely that they also wanted to increase its tractability and just possibly its nose. So of course they outcrossed it to other breeds with only it's work potential in mind. Nowadays' this could not be done at least not if you wanted your pups K.C. registered. If the k.c. had existed then sever al of the breeds we value so highly today would simply not exist ! The k.c. breed standards are a certain way of ensuring that breeds do split into two types ,show and work. In order to win inthe ring showers must adhere to the breed standard and to their way of thinking, if some aspect of how a dog looks is good and helps it to win in the ring then more of that aspect is bred for, leading to exaggeration ,sometimes in some breeds gross exaggeration, to the point that exists today where so many of the "gundogs," almost ALL of them would be pretty well useless at their original working function. I believe this split is already occurring in h.pr.'s and maybe thats a good thing. Breeds have to be allowed to continue developing and if that means a judicious outcross or two followed by a ruthless "weeding" proceedure then so be it. The breed of gundog you have today was arrived at in this way and unless you believe it has already achieved the pinnacle of perfection it should be allowed to continue to develop. It would need to be done with a lot of thought and discussion by a number of work minded brains but it could be done. Some of the traits valued on the continent are not needed here, I think "mansharp" is one of them and how many of us need a dog that will kill cats or pull down any other animal ? For most of us tracking ability on large game is not a neccessity , not if it means the dog when bird hunting is inclined to go "nose down." Could we breed from scratch today a dog tailor made for work in this country ? The right size and shape for most conditions, the right coat length and texture to deal with our weather etc. and of course with a lot of willingness to work combined with a strong willingness to please and also non-aggressive, all this is probably achievable , but would the k.c. allow them to be ,not exhibited in the ring, but ran in trials against the existing k.c. registered breeds where they might beat them ? We already have breeds in this country that are good, but which ,in the words of my schoolteacher "could do better." We must let them evolve for that which is stagnant is decaying. W.B. |
||||||
| BritAnnie |
I have NEVER heard such utter rubbish in my life! Well actually, that isn't strictly true - I hear it from just about every 'working dog owner/trainer' every time I am in any of their company! It gets monotonous in the extreme! Mat I quote what i have often been told "You can't get a show dog to work therefore don't ever use a show dog to taint your working stock!" Poppycock!! Particularly where HPRs are concerned. I will admit that some breeds have become over exaggerated because show people have got the bit between their teeth, but if the working breeders had used show dogs in their lines from the beginning this would not have happened. Do you not realise, WB, that the Breed Standards were set out by WORKING people - NOT show people. Have you never heard the sentence - 'if it's made right, it will work right' In order to do a decent day's work a dog needs heart and lung room - in my breed, hence the standard says 'rounded ribcage, deep chest. It needs correct balance, angulation and bone to withstand the rigours of rough countryside. It is workmanlike. It has substance without heaviness. It is moderately well-boned. Lively with an intelligent expression. Square and cobby appearance. This is not the description of a show dog, it is that of a working dog! It is the WORKING breeders who have split the gundog breeds, not the show ones - look at my kennel motto and I repeat it - Goodlooking AND Intelligent! Annie |
||||||
| guy |
It is a basic tenant that form follows function. so it seems to me that it follows - if the form is wrong then the ability to function will be impaired. Well the function will not be the same as originally planned.
The 'standard ' is something to be aspired to. Is it not the interpretation of this that is the problem? For instance if 'rounded ribcage' is interpreted as barrel chested when it should be seen as 'well sprung' one gets a completely different dog. By well sprung i understand the ribs giving volume high up the dog, coupled with a deep chest not only gives you more volume for heart and lungs but also allows the whole of the front articulation to keep straighter - the dogs weight is directed to the ground more directly making for a less tiring gait; giving longer work. A dog is not just a bag of bones - it is what is between the ears that keeps it working - i cannot see how this can be tested in the show arena - it can only be tested in the field. If we can write a standard for conformation then it should be possible to write a standard for ability. the dog can then be measured against that standard - objectively. Working dogs are selected for their ability, not their looks. If the standard was sound in the first place then a dog with a conforming body and the head of a trialing champion would be a phenomenal force to contend with. |
||||||
| tashap |
what an interesting topic. I've never come across a breed that still allows origin crossing so that is definitely of interest. Difficult to find info on these rarer breeds from the net so its good that these dogs are brought up on sites like this.
I'm not sure about the breeds splitting being because of the standard, the weim standard states 'hunting ability paramount' but I doubt the majority of dogs in the ring would be worth their salt on the field. Most don't get the opportunity. We had a discussion on german working dogs in comparison to the dogs over here and they end result was that its not just the build of the dog that is necessarily different but the temperment which has been dulled down to make them more suitable for our needs over here. I don't know how true that is though having only seen a couple of the german lines in action I would be interested to know though. |
||||||
| Helen S |
This is a bit of a hobby horse of mine too, it is an issue with performance horses (not race horses). In Europe, where the best performance breeds are from because they have had ruthless breeding programmes for decades, stallions which don't achieve certain levels of training at certain ages are gelded and mares can only join the breeding register when they have been passed. These tests include perfomance testing and confirmation assessments; the confirmation standards are to ensure economy of movement, long term soundness, heart and lung room etc. Such horses are not always classically beautiful standing still but are transformed by spectacular self carriage and movement.
Surely the showing fraternity of working dog breeds should also be strongly encouraged to participate in the most basic of Natural Ability Tests. Ideally only dogs which pass a standard could be put on a breeding register. This would not involve the dogs having a huge amount of gun training, just the basics. Isn't that what the Natural Ability Tests were originally meant for? Helen S |
||||||
| windem bang |
Thanks Guy,
You have beaten me to the punch and done it much more succinctly too. I had it sort of written in my head what I would write in reply to Annie's post. In order to split Annie's ire I wiil post it tomorrow in its unchanged and much more wordy form. Amazing, in two places you have used almost exactly the same words as me with as far as those parts go, the same thoughts behind them. Annie should soon stop her return thrust on you when she reads mine ! thanks again - W.B. -One toot and yer oot !!! |
||||||
| BritAnnie |
Oh stop your tooting Jock. 
Just look at what Helen S has said - it makes a lot of sense. In France, all Brittanys must be 'confirmed' before they can be bred from, and they have to be a year old before that can be done. The TAN is the very basic they are expected to achieve too. That is, they must be of correct shape, and must have natural ability. If they weren't the correct shape they wouldn't be able to do the job they were born to do - end of story and the sooner you non showing fraternity learn this the better it will be for our wonderful DUAL PURPOSE breeds. Let's keep them that way. I am not saying the show way of breeding is right, I am not saying the working way of breeding is right. What I am saying is let's have commonsense in all of this and not breed with a Brittany just because it is a good show specimen to another show specimen and not breed a FTW brittany to another FTW Brittany - mix em up and stir, and you can bet your bottom dollar it will produce top dollar dogs in both And as for Guy - note our website mission statement - The aim of the club is to encourage breeding the true type of Brittany, ensure adequate classification at shows, and promote Field Trials. and also In France, the country of origin of the Brittany, the principle that our breed is dual purpose is held in very high esteem, and both beauty and working ability are conscientiously promoted Annie |
||||||
| josie |
Hmm, the way I see the problem, is this:
1. In most if not all HPR breeds, there are a large number of breeders breeding JUST for show only. That is - the dog's appearance is the only thing that matters in deciding whether it will be bred from or not. 100% of what is considered when the dog is bred is show. 2. Then there are also many people who are breeding for show AND for working ability. That is, let's say 50% is appearance and 50% is working ability. 3. But there are very, very few or no breeders breeding JUST for working ability, with showing not factoring in at all. (0-1%) So - if you look overall, at the above figures, we have loads of people breeding 100% for show. Then we have a vast number of people also breeding 50% for show, and not totally putting working ability first. And no people breeding entirely for working. Over time, with these factors, we are as a whole breeding working ability out at the expense of showing. Add into that the fact that the number of people who participate in showing in HPR breeds is far greater than the number who participate in working events of any kind, so the numbers are also against us. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well (I doubt it  ) but that means that the influence of showing is far, far, far greater overall than the influence of working, when dogs are selected to be bred in the breeds as a whole. Phew, I think I might have just been v confusing there but I know what I mean anyway
|
||||||
| BritAnnie |
No, you are wrong for the Brittany anyway. We have a stated AIM - a Mission statement - look at our website. It is VERY clear. Look at our code of conduct. Our Members sign this before being approved. They can be disciplined if they do not adhere. It has not needed to be done as yet - all new dogs try the TAN and if they don't get it one year they can try again until they do. Many pass first time. Some breeders will only sell to owners who promise to train their pup for working. Most breeders keep a check on their pups - I certainly do. All of mine sign to say they will send photographs and a report every year. I quote from our code below Annie
|
||||||
| josie |
Annie - How many Brittanies are there, on average, in terms of number of entries, at champ shows?
At the working test yesterday I saw none, and the only ones I remember seeing are Guy's at working tests. Not saying Guy is the only person who works Britannies, I'm just saying that the number of people whose focus is showing and the number whose focus is working do seem massively different - if they're not in Britts, then you're really lucky and long may it last. Also, I don't think that people breeding for both conformation and working ability is going to "neutralise" the effect of a vast number of people breeding just for showing/conformation. (It could be that everyone in Brittanies is breeding for both, I don't know much about Brittanies, if so you guys are really lucky and should keep it that way, but for most HPR breeds it's not like that and is def not like that for Weims.) Look at it this way - think of me making a cake which is one HPR breed: I put in 100g of flour (showing!), this represents the people who are only breeding for conformation. Then I add another 50g of flour (more showing) and 50g of eggs (working!). This is the dual purpose people who divide what they are breeding for into 50% showing and 50% working. Total of 150g of showing/flour and 50g of working/eggs. Working outnumbered by far. And this actually assumes that the number of people who are interested in showing V dual purpose is equal, which it isn't for most breeds - in most breeds the numbers showing far outnumber the numbers breeding for dual purpose. So the situation is actually far worse than that, something like putting in 800gs of flour and then 50g of flour and 50g of eggs = 800% showing and 50% working. I know the solution to this isn't going to be v popular but the only thing I can think of is for there to be an equally large number of people as the showing folk breeding entirely for working ability (not gonna happen!). Ho hum, by the way I'm not a good cook and I don't bake good cakes!
|
||||||
| MC |
Hang on a mo. One minute the serious field breeders abandon and next the show ruin. Another load of the usual 'put the blame onto someone else.' In fact I am fast coming to the opinion that field trailists and gundog breeders ruin breeds. Certainly in the country(s) where hunting and field trailling have diverged into two different concepts, and those people who breed untypical dogs with poor structure and state that this is not ruining a breed because their dogs can supposedly hunt to some degree, you are ruining breeds that dedicated true hunters developed many years ago. And it's all for ego. Sounds just like show people doesn't it? Certainly there are people who breed for show looks only in gundogs and don't care a wit about hunting, but there are plenty who introduce hunting lines to keep the ability, and plenty who strive to retain both. You don't have to win any field trial to have a sound hunting companion and breed sound hunting companions. The hunters who developed these breeds and who formulated standards to breed to had an eye for beauty and they were able to breed for sound structural conformation, beauty and ability. If todays breeders can't do that they need to stop passing the buck. Or should we have more like the breeder of the chocolate Weimaraner X who spat at me that it was "people like me that ruined breeds" What a joke!! |
||||||
| langhaar |
What is your breeding record Josie? | ||||||
| BritAnnie |
There are about 45 or so usually at Ch Shows, about 70 at our breed shows, up to about 15 to 20 at all breed open ones. ALL of my puppies over a period of 25 years, bar 4 have been worked, either with birds or the gun, of that 4, two are taken out 'play' hunting regularly(probably a phrase working people might use as they are not shot over), one was sick(we kept her but she was allowed to hunt as much as she was able) and the 4th goes hill and mountain walking (as all of ours did with John till he died 4 years ago) The majority of Brittanys in the UK (about 3500/4000 registered) are worked but only a few are trialled or taken to working tests. That is NOT a criteria to judge a breed. Not everyone has the time, energy, inclination or money. I live in the North East of Scotland, even if I had the money for petrol and looking after my other dogs while I am gone, I couldn't face driving 2 hours each way to the nearest training groups and 6 or 7 hours each way to the nearest field trial. That may change soon - I am hoping so. But in the meantime, my dogs are trained (and believe they are working) on partridge, pheasant, hares and rabbits on my own 10 acres. From this you will realise that approximately 1% of the UK Brittanys are shown, possibly even less are trialled or tested, but I would guess at 80% worked in some way. Even allowing for pet only ones - they are not recommend as pet only due to their high energy levels - it is patently obvious that Brittanys are mainly worked. Annie |
||||||
| josie |
I haven't bred, but if I have a dog which I feel it would be improving the breed to breed, and which has proved itself with results, I would love to - I'm very interested in breeding in general, and in different breeders' philosophies. But until and unless I have a dog like that then I won't be breeding, because there are plenty Weims out there to supply all the people who want one, and far too many in rescue at the moment.
However, there is a lot to be said for the people who don't breed and who must choose their puppies from others' litters, selecting breeders, and selecting the breeder with the breeding philosophy they most admire. It really puts things in perspective. I have just been through this all over again and hopefully we'll have a new pup in a couple of months, and I find choosing a breeder one of the most stressful things imaginable. |
||||||
| tashap |
have you decided which litter your going for jo? | ||||||
| josie |
Well I think so, but.....it's not a Weim  I won't say any more till they are born and I know for sure because don't want to jinx myself!
|
||||||
| tashap |
so your deserting us as well.... bad woman!!! Don't blame you though I looked at some GWP's and a GLP recently... | ||||||
| josie |
Well, let's just say I am not TOTALLY deserting Weims. Only two thirds deserting them. Gosh, if I haven't given myself away now I don't know what will
|
||||||
| tashap |
oh no your getting a srhp | ||||||
| josie |
Sssshhh.
|
||||||
| windem bang |
This is turning into a really good discussion. I made a rough copy of what I was going to reply to Annie last night before reading all these latest posts. I will try to reply to some of them first before typing what I had originally intended.
M.C. I agree with you ,it is certainly possible to have and breed good hunting dogs without winning or even competing in trials with them. The main problem with this is a prospective puppy buyerwho does not know you or who has not seen your dogs work would have to take your word for it that they are good. I was "sold a pup" once before by taking a mans word for it, I have no intention of repeating the experience ! I therefor like my pups to come from sources known to me or from a proven F.T. background whenever possible. Helen S. - I think the idea of a basic ability test is good the ptoblem might be deciding just what is "basic." My idea of basic might be someone elses notion of fairly advanced. Josie - You thought you weren't explaining yourself very well, I think you made avery good job of it ! Annie - You think it would be a good idea at least where brits. are concerned to , in your own words, "mix em up and stir ." Now there's a good idea, and while were at it lets throw a good dash of working collie into the pot and see what bubbles to the top. Collies point so no problem there, a slight increase in size , I think brits. in this country could usefully be a little bigger ! Perhaps an improved angulation to their hind legs,collies have a centuries old proven ability to cover rough ground at speed. Last but not least an increase in willingness to please. Mix em up and stir ? I'm all for it! Now onto what I didn't have time to type out last niight. I agree Annie , you can get a show dog to work. I am training 3 such dogs for other people at the moment. One lab. halve show winner halve F.T. Champion . One golden retriever , a show winner and owned by a show judge who is unusual nowadays in that she tries very hard to keep the working side of her line of dogs alive. This bitch will be o.k. as a worker but would not stand a chance in a trial against pure working dogs. The last dog is a pointer from show winning stock that is known to have kept a fair bit of working ability, again she would not stand a chance in a trial. She does however have one strong point, she is a bloody good retriever ! I can and I have trained all these dogs to work but could have done so much more easily with pure working bred dogs. What I would like to do is to improve working dogs, not pull them down nearer to the show dogs level. I am looking for the highest common denominator not the lowest. If you entered a show winning h.p.r. for a trial and it was a slow moving , boot polisher and hard mouthed it would be thrown out on its ear.It can still be entered for and it can still win at shows. So it can't even get a c.o.m. in a trial but it is a big time show winner, will it be bred from ? You bet it will !!! If it is a male it will be passing on its useless genes to litters all over the country ! If anyone interested in working buys one of these pups he'll be buying a real "pup in a poke !" Move outside of our breeds for a moment and consider what breeding for "a look" alone has achieved for another working breed. The greyhound:- if conformation counts for so much ,why aren't the owners of track greyhounds stacked up six stories deep outside Crufts to mate their bitches to the winning greyhound dog? Surely ,by your way of thinking this must be the best greyhound in the world because it has the best conformation ? Yes it does have the best conformation but only for trotting around a ring! I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong ,no show winning greyhound can even put up a good enough qualifying time to even be allowed on to a race track ! If there is ever a race between 5 show winning greyhounds and one very mediocre track dog , I know where I will put my money ! Track racing is mainly about sheer speed and the dogs with the "best" conformation do not have it ! Most showdogs that were originally meant to work are just caricatures of what they are really meant to be. The working people didn't make them that way so I do blame the show fraternity. I have never bred from any dog of mine that has not been placed 1st. or 2nd. in at least one field trial. The pups I have sold were almost guaranteed to make decent workers for I try only to mate the best to the best and I amnot talking about show-ring conformation. They are bred to work from proven workers. You have given the saying " if it's made right ,it will work right" that is demonstrably untrue as I have just pointed out by using greyhounds as an example. So "POPPYCOCK!!" to quote your expression. A dog is much more than what it looks like and if show people would worry as much about what is INSIDE a dogs head we would not be having this discussion. Dogs run hard and fast because they WANT to and the same applies to many other working attributes. Why can a dog ,with, what you would consider poor showring attributes, easily outclass a show-bred dog when working ? Why ? Because it WANTS to !!! Try having a show-ring judge run a measuring tape over that ! Not one of Tom Brechneys' dogs have ever won anything in the ring, but can they work ? There is NO show winning dog of ANY h.p.r. breed that can beat them at work , if I'm wrong and you've got one Annie, lets see it !!! Yes , Tom is very , very good but even he still needs the material to work with and it is isn't show material !!! I will give you another saying that I have posted before but which is well worth repeating "through function to form. " Your saying stated earlier, puts the cart before the horse. I have read the Brittany breed standards before and it is pretty reasonable but it is NOT the description of a working dog, it is only the description of a dog that MIGHT work. I need something a bit more definite than that and so does every "average" man that goes shooting. Most people that go shooting want a dog that is fairly easily controlled , they want to shoot not train their dog. Much as I like brits. as a breed I do not think I am being unfair when I say that the ordinary guy who goes out shooting cannot control them. What are all you brit.breeders thinking of ? Are you trying to breed dogs that only good triallists have any real hope of working with ? While I love their willingness to "GO" they really do need more willingness to please bred into them. Anyway, maybe you're right Annie , it's the working people and breeders that have split the gundog breeds. The reason why ? They had to !!! W.B. - One toot and yer oot !!! |
||||||
| josie |
Well said W.B, you get my vote! | ||||||
| windem bang |
Hi Annie,
I noticed you state that as far as training , tests and trials are concerned ,"not everyone has the time,energy,inclination or money" to travel to them. So you DO put shows first since like all the other show people you seem to find the time,money etc. to do that all right ! Where are all these working brits.? I go to shoots all the time and the ONLY brits. I ever see are my own! W.B. |
||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Well I have a Britt and she is both a brilliant worker and a Sh Ch. I don't go to Field Trials because we have enough to do on our shoot. As for working dog breeders not going to shows you only have to look at the working Springer and or Cocker more like mongrels than recognised breeds. Neither of these look any thing like the original dogs used years ago, in fact in most cases the original breeders would have no idea what they were looking at, as for showing them most would be be laughed out of the ring and these dogs are bred by gamekeepers for gamekeeper or others of the same ilk. Not only that how many of these dogs have been health checked and how much care is taken in producing them, it's all very well going on about dogs working but if they can only work for half their life because of HD or PRA whats the point in having a brilliant worker that cannot move by the time it reaches five? It's the people breeding the dogs not the standard that is at fault. People breed the type that they like and if other people don't like it hard luck. As for working ability my daughter has a show bred Border Collie that beats the pants off the local farm bred dogs [bred to work for generations]
And if some one goes out with a Brittany and they cannot handle it is that the dogs fault or the owners?As for not seeing any other Britts working what do you expect living up there in the wilds of Scotland... no self respecting Britt would live up there at risk of being attacked by Haggi? |
||||||
| BritAnnie |
Except mine who can all catch em on the run or as they take off
Come off your soap box now, WB, like your bitch's co-owner, I'll NEVER agree with you - and you haven't commented on my figures yet - 1% of UK Brittanys in the UK are shown, a little less than that trialled/tests - so where are the other 3000 + - certainly not in pet homes or we'd have had the little b's all back on rescue! They are with Falconers/Austringers, or with rough shooters - not on driven shoots like the ones you frequent where the points are stolen from them (my personal experience, that one). But I suppose you will now tell us that isn't working - well just try it and see what replies you get to that one! And as to size - most of the ones I have Judged have fitted perfectly to both the UK and the FRENCH Standard, which is what I would expect and wish for. We con't want them like the American Brittany - after all ours are Epagneul Bretons - and I can spell it correctly too
And as to showing as opposed to working - mine are worked, at home on my own land - I'm sure I explained that, perhaps your retirement is taking it's toll? As yet I don't personally trial my dogs, although my dear departed did as you well know - BUT .........Watch this space 
Annie |
||||||
| Helen |
I have a gwp that I show and going to work. How do I know she is going to be a good worker? She has everything in her favour as her parents are good working dogs. I have her father, who is a fantastic dog on the grouse. Admittedly, I only use him for his hunting and pointing but he will retrieve till the cows come home. He has just finished a VERY successful counting season and to see him work, is an absolute joy. Her mother is a good dog also. She is used for shooting and grouse counting. Teal has the potential and the background to become a good working dog. If anything goes wrong, it will be my fault. She has accompanied me on some shoots and I've done a very little bit of grouse work with her and she is showing potential.
I took her to Crufts as I qualified her for it last May at SKC by coming 1st in puppy bitch. I have also won BPIS at a local limit show and have actually done reasonably well with her. Her crit for Crufts is: "liked her kind expression. Not the maturity of 1. Very pretty bitch of a good shape with a harsh coat. Moved well but not quite the drive of 1." She came second in her class at crufts out of 5 I think. She is the first dog I have showed and I am enjoying it. I wont' go the length and breadth of the country because I am not that committed but we enjoy the ones I do go to. I do feel you can have a show dog, as well as a good working dog - in some breeds and I believe GWP's are one of them. I don't think trials or tests should be compulsory because not everyone wants to compete. I'm not sure I am going to trial. As long as I have a dog that I can work, I will be happy. There must be a larger percentage of dogs just working, than trialling and we would become more of a nanny state than we already are if we were forced to take a test and as WB says, what's basic in the great scheme of things. Helen |
||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Well, as Anne will agree, first and formost our little [in body] britts are hunting machines and then friends of the family. Showing, if treated as a day out to catch up with the gossip and not taken too seriously when it comes to the showing side [after all we all take the best dog home] is fun, and if your dog does do the job that he/she was bred to do then that is the bonus. As some one once told me 'a good horse is never a bad colour' and this should also apply to a dogs working ablities as well 'a good dog will work in spite of it's pedigree or it's owners credentials' or the fact they are being attacked by Haggi in the bogs!! | ||||||
| BritAnnie |
Well I don't know how many working Brittanys(I hate the abbreviation - don't think the French would like it either) you have seen, WB - doesn't sound like many from your previous post  , but all the ones I have seen/know personally - maybe about 30, maybe more if I sit down and think about it, are well under control.  I can 'stop' all of my three at about 60 yards or so, more or less whatever they are doing, going or coming, more or less every time (except when I show off and say watch this )and they will sit and watch me waiting for the next command. Is that too little control? I'm sorry if you think so - I definitely need help if that is the case. Right, that's enough of this - I'm off out so my dogs can train me, I obviously have a great need
Annie |
||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Anne you can stop them today but what about tomorrow?? Just as the bird goes over and they are just out of reach......been there done that.
OK, Brittanys or should it be Brittanies? A pond of Brittanys perhaps, or a swarm. I don't know anyone ordinary who has a Brittany, we are all loopy and that goes for you too. |
||||||
| guy |
[quote="Annie"]
Annie - looks like you have a problem developing here - pegging and running in are eliminating offenses |
||||||
| BritAnnie |
Does that apply to Haggi or just to birds and bunnies. I'm not sure you'd class our 'beasties' as game
|
||||||
| guy |
not sure the J regs are clear on that one - i leave it to others to offer advice. | ||||||
| josie |
Are haggi fur or feather? I mean, do they fly? | ||||||
| BritAnnie |
Haggi - fur or feather - a good question....................There are a number of types of this breed. The type of 'Les Haggis' with which I am familiar are multilingual, multinational, multipurpose, multitasty, multieverything. They have fur to keep them warm in our mountain weather, feathery wings to get them out of the way of marauding hunting spaniels, three legs for running on the hillsides to escape bounding retrievers, and cloaks which make them invisible to pointers. They live in trees and in burrows. We don't eat the tree ones as they get broken and smashed up when they fall. They make a helluva racket when they are trapped, forcing the captors to release them to save their eardrums. The only people who can catch them and make them oven ready are Master Butchers. They breed prolifically in the back of the Butchers shops overnight after being caught, thus making them instant millionaires just before the 25th of January each year.This website tells all http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Haggis Annie |
||||||
| windem bang |
Hi Ghilliegumdrop,
I liked your comment about all of us brit. trainers being loopy. How very,very true, except me of course!---- How about this as a description of a multiple of Btittanys' - "A bistro of Brittanys' !!" That little quip was not aimed at you! Annie, - I do or rather did a hell of a lot of rough shooting and during the last 20 plus years have worked my dogs on shoots both rough and smooth,from the Scottish borders all the way up to Glen Clova. I still have not seen a single brit. other than my own at any shoot anywhere in all that time. Where are all these 3000+ brits. They can't all belong to falconers, I know a few of them and only one has got a brit. - he knows of only a few more in Scotland and I would think if a lot more were in the hands of other falconers he would know about it. Falconry is quite a small world. I do not see many brits out working Annie but I do meet, even if only on the phone, desperate people who would like to work their brits. 'cos thats what they got them for, but who cannot for their brits. have the usual attitude for the breed of , "I did it my way !" I happen to like this ,it amuses me as well as driving me nuts, but for most people this attitude makes it almost impossible to train the breed. Please believe me this is a problem for this breed for there comes a time when being cute just isn't enough. I will end on this serious note for once. W.B. |
||||||
| guy |
would that make it a 'diner of Brittanys ' if one was in America?
how about a 'whatever' of Brittanys? or perhaps a 'flash' |
||||||
| munstyman |
Given what has been said, I thought a `peek-a-boo' of brittanies cause `now you see them now you dont' 
I did write a long serious, very personal post to add to the discussion topic...but the sodding site logged me out again and lost it   I thought it had stopped doing that...still it was probably for the better
Peter |
||||||
| Helen S |
There is a lot I agree with in some of your arguements and perhaps what it comes down to is that the KC and breed clubs should declare what they want to do as regards maintaining/improving the working breeds. Now I am ignorant of the stances they currently take, but it appears that because the working breeders are in the minority that issues relating to working ability in working breeds have been pushed aside.
Sorry Helen, I stick to my guns in that if someone wishes to breed a litter of a working breed, the dog and bitch should at the very least pass a Natural Ability working test just to prove that they have the desire to work and are biddable enough. I don't mean a competition or trial. Perhaps, in a case such as your genuine working dogs, you could have written references and/or video footage to demonstrate the fact. I don't see why it should be so undesirable for the individual breeder to do this, they can't be doing it for the money can they? As Josie said, she wants to know that she will be doing the breed some good before she decides to breed from any of her dogs. Got to go and do some work now. Helen S |
||||||
| BritAnnie |
Well, I have sold 6 to Falconers in Scotland, my dogs have sired another 20 of which at least half are or were in Scotland - I wonder if they've escaped and gone to France - wouldn't be surprised if you can't find them - you've probably frightened them off by telling them they are show dogs. I don't breed show dogs, by the way, I breed Brittanys. Annie |
||||||
| guy |
munstyman - give it another go. a ramble with rumble. | ||||||
| Helen |
I can see how it would work Helen but I still feel that why should some body tell me what I can't do. I am sick to death of what this crappy government is hoisting onto us. Maybe 10 years ago, I would be totally agreeing with you!
Helen |
||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Loopy I may be, in fact at my age I admit it's highly likely to be senility. But, I have noticed that WB has not answered the question 'what health checks do these working people do on the parents of all these so called brilliant working dogs?' and for that matter on the pups? What happens to the dogs that don't come up to scratch? Are they off loaded as pets or, God forbid, are they dispatched to the great working ground in the sky? Do the working people have a governing body that oversees the health side of their dogs, as the show people have with the KC? At least the show side of things can sell the surplus pups as pets....even the Brittanys, and at the end of the day, even Brittanys make good pets for those with the patience to train them. As I have said previously 'it's not the dogs it's the owners.' and yes, where are those 3000 plus brittanys that have been registered over the years, to my knowledge we don't have them in rescue, unlike the Labradors, Golden Retreivers and assorted Spaniels that end up there, both working bred and show bred. You never know the
Brittanys might be in homes where they are quietly worked on local shoot's by people who don't go round boasting about it. When I am invited to our shoot every year the comment I get is 'bring the dog she works harder than half a dozen men. Notice they say men and don't have the nerve to run down women. Every time I read the Shooting Times there are dogs, of all ages, for sale to good homes, and these are not the trained ones either so presumely they are 'untrainable' or perhaps, as I have said before, it's the owners that are untrainable!! Not that I would say that about any one in particular WB but, as is said ' if the cap fits etc etc' As for Brittanys in Scotland I reckon they have more sense than to live out in the wilds being attacked by marauding Haggi that have escaped from the local butcher's. They all live down here where the living is easy and the Brie and the truffle are readily available AND they are appreciated for what they are, super little working dogs with excellent temperments. |
||||||
| josie |
I don't think people should have to test their dogs if they don't want to. However, if they also want to breed, and if they want to breed in order to improve the breed, then I reckon dogs need to be compared on a national level - only then can you really know what standard your dog is. (I wait to be shot down in flames with bazookas now!)
I'll give you an example - my brother's best friend's father had a labrador and when we were kids and within our family and in our neighbourhood/area, this dog was considered to be "amazing". It would (gasp) sit and wait while someone threw something and only go when sent. It would bring game or anything right back to you. Ok, so it dropped it on the floor, but no one else's dog we knew would do that and not bog off! And sure, it had usually pegged the game, but so what. Two of our neighbours who also thought this dog was "great" used him at stud. Now, since getting older and seeing what other dogs can do, seeing what the standards are, this dog was nothing special. In fact, it was probably way below standard. Breeding it was doing a disservice to the breed, when there were so many other far superior dogs out there. But it was the best we all knew of, in our area. I think that the only way you can really compare your dogs to others, all over the country, is to compete with them - or test them to meet standards if you are not competitive. The showing world are always telling newbies that they can't just stay at home and assess their own dogs and decide they meet the breed standard and can be bred from - they are really forthright in telling people that they should show them and get some impartial opinions first on them, see how they compare with the other dogs in the breed. I don't see why breeding for working ability should be different - surely people need to compare their dogs abilities with others? I am now taking cover behind a plant pot to dodge the incoming fire!!
|
||||||
| BritAnnie |
I entirely agree, but what WB is saying is that ONLY FTW dogs work, and they should be bred ONLY to other'workers' What I am saying is that in my breed at least, Brittanys,(and I personally believe this applies to most HPRs), there is no difference between show bred and working bred because the vast majority of them ARE worked. And by 'worked' I mean properly worked not tarted up to perfection for FTs and GWTs. There are over 3000 of them out there doing their stuff on the moors, forests and mountains. I very firmly believe in dual purpose and I will ALWAYS breed accordingly. Annie |
||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
I have no problem with people breeding for working ability, afterall that is what the French do with the Brittany. What I am saying is that you can have a good looking dog capable of doing a days work and also of winning in the showring. As for health checks, these days there is so much legislation and people sueing for the least thing that, quite apart from the benefit to the dog, it makes sense to test for inherited problems ie HD and PRA. Would you like to buy a dog, spend several years training him/her to a high standard only to find that dog was suffering from some thing that could have been prevented by testing the parents and not breeding from two dogs carrying the disease. That is why the KC has set up data bases within breeds. If these so called working people don't take notice they will, sooner rather than later, end up with dogs that are cripples by the time they are in their teens. Yes, I know there is an element of exaggeration in what I have said, and, yes I know that some working breeders do test but it must be said that not many of them do, and this is not a good thing. At least the majority of show people have the dogs welfare at heart, although their are some amongst them who also stick their heads in the sand. | ||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
I thought you told me you had not time to spend on here ALL day.
Sure and I agree with you Annie, would I dare not too? Mind you we haven't got much moor, forest or mountain down here in the south. Would be interesting to find out just what those other 3000 Brittanys are doing tho'.
And I still have no answer regarding the surplus!! |
||||||
| MC |
Thank you. Very well put. |
||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Where in NZ, and did you go to the Otago trial in February? | ||||||
| windem bang |
Personally, I thought this was a pretty typical reply from yet another show person who thinks that if a dog can eat a sausage it must be worthy of the name dachshund !! Many of the show orientated people I have met and watched with their dual purpose wonderdogs could not train a parrot to sit on a perch !
I do not have to depend on my tongue where extolling a dogs worth is concerned. It is on record at the kennel club in the field trial section. In the last 30 years I have owned 8 dogs. Four of these dogs won Open qualifying field trials, one dog won several places in novice trials, without ever winning. She was worth quite a bit of money but I gave her to a young man just starting with gundogs because I knew him and liked him ,he was soft and gentle and suited the bitch pefectly. So much for the uncaring gundog type handlers ! That is the only dog I have "got rid off" in more than 30 years . The other three dogs, the last three, were never trialled , partly due to ill health on my part . Two of these dogs although working on various shoots all their lives were never bred from. Had I bred them the buyers would have had to take my word for it as to the quality of their work. I would not take your word regarding the ability of your brittany as a worker and I do not expect you or any one else to take mines. Not without those lovely little slips of paper from the K.C. that shows the value of a dogs working abiity, not just by the value your mouth can put on it but the vallue placed by at least two independants ,the judges . Don't just talk about how " terrific" your dog is, anybody can do that about any potlicker. Prove it and let us see the paper. The last dog of these poor , hard done by ,barely looked after bunch of mine is a brittany about a year old now.She is now chasing rabbits and everything else all over the place since my son sort of "borrowed " her to be a family pet. I am almost certain a little family gathering took place behind my back,and a plot was concocted to get her away from me before my heart packed in as I tried to "run her down." Anyway that is the last of 30 years worth of dogs, unless you count in a little G.S.P. pup I have just got. I have called him "Buck" just so I can have the fun of listening to my wife when she yells at him to get off the settee, also quite funny is when she uses her angry warning voice ,which is always the dogs name followed by the word "you ! Our neighbours through the wall have already anxiously enquired if everythings all right between my wife and myself ! W.B. - One toot and yer oot !!! |
||||||
| josie |
Admin-related Message:
Can we start a new thread here, relating to testing, rather than continue to let this one meander off? Thanks! (Ie, whoever feels the urge to reply next, please start a new thread!) See Announcement about beginning new threads which I am about to make.... |
||||||
| guy |
josie
could you tidy it up for us? perhaps moving the errant posts to a new thread? |
||||||
| josie |
Hi Guy - As far as I know, it's not possible to do that given the forum software: Admin and moderators can delete and edit people's posts, but moving them from one thread to another doesn't seem to be possible. I can copy and paste and start a new thread, but then all posts will appear to have been posted by me and it will all look a mess.
The other half of the "splitting thread" problem is that, even if it were possible to do this, if we take out all the posts about one issue, what we have left might not make sense - people might refer to both issues in their posts, or reply to someone whose post is no longer there and so on - it becomes a nightmare. The only answer is for people to think about how related their post is to the topic subject, and to start a new thread if they think it's not really related. |
||||||
| Helen |
I've had a fiddle and managed to split it. Didn't have much time but think I moved all the relevant posts.
Helen |
||||||
| josie |
Thanks Helen, now you are going to have to tell me how you did that because I've got no idea and spent ages attempting it!!! 
Anyone wanting to talk about tests etc, the link to the split part of this thread is here: http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/about1027.html |
||||||