strict German breeding conditions.........

pastel · strict German breeding conditions.........

I've just returned from Germany after taking my bitch to a stud dog and I am so impressed with the strict rules in germany for a stud dog and bitches who are allowed to breed out there, apparently they are the strictest in Europe....... all dogs male or female have to do tests for HPR abiliites, they also have to do be shown and marked on conformation, they also have to do tests for their temperament, All dogs must be hip and eye tested any problems and they are not allowed to breed in germany.
I do think it was worth the 1300 miles and 26 hrs of driving!! lets hope she is in pup!

Mike

Good luck! That is a lot of effort you have gone to, would you mind telling me which stud dog you used? You may PM me if you like.

terrier

Should it be like that in the UK?,I certainly think so.It would get rid of a lot of the puppy peddlars for sure.

lagopuslagopus

It must depend on the breed of dog then because they don't do eye testing on Munsterlanders over there.

countrygirl

It will never happen in this country Rolling Eyes

Do they not have any cross-breed dogs in Gremany? I can understand it happening with registared dogs but surely there must be dogs breed outside the system who are not shown or worked?

Caz

guy

The system works because the breed clubs holdcontrol of the breed. No KC equivalent for them. I am not sure the system is watertight as the 'breed master' is a person and we all know how easy it is for a 'person' to be fallible. But testing for work abilities coupled with assesment for confirmation must be better than just judging pretty dogs.
It won't happen here.

lou

The Germans are pretty strict with horses too aren't they?
What baffles me is how manky the German, German Shepherds are. what a state. you know - until Crufts 2008 I assumed that the hump backed GSD's were the result of terrible British backyard breeding - but no - they are show dogs!! Shocked

even a German bred one got best of breed! How can a Country so strict with its breeding programs make such a mess of what is essentially a very basic, traditional looking dog?

Louise

wildman

Good Point and it is (I believe) the most popular dog in its home country.
There are good and bad dogs everywhere and whilst we don't have a 'formal' testing/breeding programme for our dogs, a little investigation on the part of the prospective purchaser of a pup can go a long way.

Ask to see the parents relevant health tests.
Ask about the parents working history SPT, FT, WT results etc.
Plan ahead go and see the prospective sire and dam working.
Ask what the breeders rationale is behind that particular mating.
Observe the sire and dams temperaments particularly around other dogs.
Look at previous progeny if possible.

These are all basic questions I would be asking, and whilst positive answers will not guarantee a good pup, neither will an all singing/dancing testing system.

pastel

Apparently , the Weimaraner club in germany has the strictest rules than any other breed and also in Europe, I was told that the German shepard over there are very lenient compared to Weims so bad examples could be the breed club and breed masters?

kiwi

wildman

Hi Kiwi

At a base level there are still no guarantees in life, I am willing to concede however that using a testing system to promote certain traits within a breeding programme will increase your chances of producing pups exhibiting those traits.

The point I guess I was making rather badly is, 'what should those traits be?'
Whilst the 'German Testing System' certainly appears to work for Germany it may not neccesarily be ideally suited to general use in the UK. There are other countries within Europe where dogs are tested for all aspects of their 'versatility' but with perhaps a greater emphasis on their 'bird work', these models may prove better suited to our situation or better still something unique to the UK. (Hold on a minute is that not what we have already got?)

Current testing via Field Trials where the game is shot in a 'real time' situation is undoubtedly a stiff challenge for dog and handler though may be better suited to dogs at the 'birdier' end of the spectrum. There is also ample opportunty to show off a dog's ground treatment, pointing and retrieving prowess via SPTs and WTs respectively.

Where we do fail is in providing testing relevant to tracking, and blood tracking in particular. This is a pity as it would at the very least give an indication as to which particular lines people should pursue if they were after a dog whose primary fuction was to follow up wounded deer.

As for that other aspect of the German system 'Control over Breeding' that is where the wheel would really come off over here. For better or worse a lot of people in the UK fancy themselves as dog breeders, with their own ideas (or lack of them) motivating their breeding. This is one aspect of dog ownership over here that is unlikely to change any time soon.

kiwi

you would have to divide the tests and competion trials in two before you could really get a grip on the value of the testing system.
one is dog sport and like showing can influence the breeds departure from it's intended use.
i like the german testing and breeding methods and also the navhda type tests conducted in the states, they show the european breeds true allround abilities not just the wirehairs.
the uk is not the only place with the best dogs being bred for half as much as those papered showdogs Rolling Eyes

wildman

Field Trials in the UK are certainly a bit removed from the pure 'dog sport' trialling of certain areas of continental europe. One dog is ran at a time and the format of the day is an attempt to approximate as near as possible the actual work that a dog would be intended to do on a normal 'rough' shooting day.
In this way dogs are judged on a variety of terrain ranging from huge expanses of open moorland to agricultural fields, small woodlands, cover strips and areas of bog.
Game varies enormously from Snipe to Canada Goose, as does the quantity present, a dog that consistently does well in a variety of locations surely demonstrates a degree of competence for its primary function i.e. 'rough shooting of fur and feathered game'.

What a dog looks like has no part in such trials.

Judging is normally strict and fair in my observation though there will obviuosly be points of contention. However the judges decision is final.
There is a water test at the end which is rather easy for novice class and varying in difficuty in Open/All-Aged Stakes.

I still feel that the only place we really let ourelves down is in the provision of a system of blood tracking tests to demonstrate a dogs particular level of competence in this discipline.

kiwi

how do the uk hpr trials measure up compared to normal pointer/setter trials ??????

caithness hunter

wildman

I am sure there are people on here far better qualified than myself to describe the intricacies of trialing Pointers and Setters but for what its worth here are the main differences as I see it.

Normally Pointer and Setter Trials are held either on grouse moors or on spring cropping/stubbles for partridge.
They are normally held just prior to or in the early part of the relevant shooting season and again after the shooting season before the breeding season. There are no game birds shot at such trials as the dogs are not expected to retrieve, there is only a shot fired at the flush to test for steadiness/gunshyness.

Dogs are run in pairs and are expected to 'back' the other dog if it should make a point.

Pointer/Setter Trials are more an expression of the dogs natural speed,grace and pure hunting ability as opposed to the utilitarian form of the HPR Trials where work before and after the shot are tested in situations as variable and unpredictable as the real thing throughout the legal shooting season.

kiwi

over here the hpr's are thrown in with the pointers and setters hence my lack of intrest in the whole thing Laughing

Lynn

Just watched the Setter/Pointer video - BRILLIANT. Thanks for putting up the link.

caithness hunter

wildman

I agree it certainly showed them at their best in what must ammount to a perfect setting.

Bareve

I enjoyed that - thanks for the link Very Happy

However I was surprised at the fact that the handlers were right alongside the dogs when they flushed (and in one case the handler flushed the birds). I would have thought for a championship stake they would be expected to flush and remain steady from a distance like the HPR's are expected to do in Open F/T's! Just an observation from an outsider.

Loved the last clip of the Irish bitch who obviously didn't really want to caste out to the left too far and then did a great out-run on the right hand side which made you think the wind was wrong for her on the left hand caste Very Happy

lagopuslagopus

The setters I've been out with Sharon have all been like that - the handler seems to do a lot of the actual flushing. The birds also don't have to get up from the nose of the dog. I was told that the reason they did that was to try and get the birds to flush one at a time rather than the whole covey at once.

wildman

The world championship for HPRs was worse. Something about continental rules applying?
I know the DK team were a bit peeved as the rules on flushing there are virtually the same as here.
It may not be much of a disadvantage on open ground for grouse or snipe but I don't think it will be very effective for a woodcock or pheasant tucked into a briar thicket.

langhaar

The German system for testing is the same for all their hunting breeds.

Breeding regs include an inbreeding coefficient calculation of less than 4%, in Longhairs line breeding is not allowed. Stud dogs can only be used 12 times, repeat matings must have permission and only for exceptional circumstances.

In this breed their committee's are concerned UK dogs are becoming bird only specialised and are judged accordingly while specific characteristics including an adaptable nose which can differentiate multiple game scents combined with an ability to swim in the coldest of temperatures for a lenghth of time ( which is far longer than the water retrieve at the end of the trial in the UK) are being bred out.

They believe these instincts are an integral part of this breed and even tho tracking may not be required in every day hunting in the UK with its unique reliance on reared birds for sport, they suggest this ability should be part of their assessment IF German bloodlines are required in the UK.

Over there a dog may be required for deer one day, boar another which is true adaptability. In their eyes breeding/ working a versatile dog for a singular feather role will in time dilute those characteristics which defined their original role.

The German system is different because they cannot own a hunting license without owning a dog who has passed their German hunting club tests.These tests are designed for multi purpose hunting and that's why they have to protect these instincts in their dogs. Extending this protection in their bloodlines in countries with less strict or no government canine legislation is debatable.

We wanted longhairs of original type and purpose and am quite willing to add a further dimension to their work by introducing a tracking role, however the majority of HPR owners seem to be content with the role defined by our KC testing system.

Lynn

Recently I was speaking with the owner of two GLPs of Dutch decent Wink

She had asked me about the LMCs Natural Aptitude Test, so I started explaining the tracking section - "Oh I don't think my dogs could do that, they are air scenting dogs" I was very nearly speechless Laughing

Its a good job she didn't go to the recent Nat Apt as one of the judges was a lady from Germany whose family breed GMs and DLs

tashap

I find the german system very interesting it is very sad that we could not have a similar thing here our own kennel club appear to have no interest all the time they are able to take money for registrations and the clubs are often worried that the reduction in membership that would result from too strict breeding criteria would be detrimental to the breed itself especially as some of the large scale and popular breeders would not meet the basic criteria.

The only problem that I can see is that if you have taken a good litter from germany using their guide lines and then opt to sell them here that you won't find the right homes for all the puppies as the majority of the needs for a dog here are very different to those of continental europe. Working homes being the most suitable, it would be a waste of a dog if they were given to pet homes with that background and level of committment to breeding.

Which qualifications did you bitch have to do prior to breeding??? Did you go to Germany to do them??

The germans like us still have a problem with people breeding outside the club its only members who adher to there rules and regulations. You can see that by the number of ads for dogs and puppies on some of the websites.

Lynn

In the case of LMs we did not need any "qualification" as Herr Ergon Vornholt one of the "Elders" of the German Club has been good friends with Raymond, Michael, and Christine (Raycris) for over thirty years. He knows of the LMC 's Natural Aptitude test and of the commitment (of some Kennels) to produce the correct type of Munsterlander for the purpose for which they were bred. He trusted that we would only be breeding from correct, proven working bitches who had good hips and tempraments. He has aways been very supportive of his "English Friends" and has influenced many of the younger German breeders to also extend the hand of friendship to us. I hope that we will always justify their faith in us.

pastel

The breed master whose stud dog I have used, help me find my bitch when i imported her, he knows the kennel and her history, I wasn't allowed to have her unless I worked her, he was happy for me to use her as her temperament and conformation is sound and that she works, he understands the test system here is different.

langhaar

UK bred longhairs, even if their parentage is from VDH registered stock, cannot run in prufungs unless their sire has been scored in prufungs and graded at a breed show.Neither Konan nor Arthur were entered in prufungs so their UK progeny cannot be entered for JGHV testing.They can be graded at a breed show but only if the committee agrees.

If a UK bitch wants to use a German stud dog she must be proved she is capable of hunting, can swim and is not gunshy or hard mouthed. A UK field trial award is not sufficient proof of working ability.

Unlike the more established ones the longhair remains highly protected so introduces restrictions not applicable to other hunting breeds.

It is far easier for Nancy to return to Germany for gradings then she can be registered in Germany as a Langhaarigen Deutschen Vorstehhund. If she is mated to a DLV stud dog her UK bred progeny can be entered in their stud book.

The DVL will not allow a continous use of their stud dogs if UK owners are not prepared to prove they are breeding to original breed type and requirement.

josie

That's all v interesting. langhaar, how would it be proved that the UK bitch who wants to use a German stud dog can hunt, swim and is not gunshy or hard mouthed? Would they go out with the owner in Germany and watch the dog at work before they allowed the breeding?

tashap

its very interesting indeed. Nice to see some of the clubs are supportive of the breed programs here despite the qualification issues.

I'd really like to have at some point an exchange program so that we could improve not just our dogs but also our training and working knowledge, there are so few people who have the opportunity to go to germany to learn and to qualify their dogs but I know several who would jump at the chance to have that indepth experience. I wonder how feasible it would be to arrange it??

langhaar

tashap

that would be a great opportunity.

langhaar

The Deutsch Langhaar Verband held a special meeting for non German breeders. Their concern was breed type would be permanently altered in those countries who use this breed for competitive field trials and have no regulated breeding requirements. Protection in type is necessary for them to procure non German bloodlines in the future.
An international breeding committee will only accept breeders with FCI registered stock. This protects this breed standard and disregards those which have been re-written by the country of importation ie the UK. FCI registration is also the main requirement for JGHV testing. In countries outside of the FCI who have no regulated breeding requirements by their KC will only be given access to German stud dogs by special permission. Allowing exportation of puppies to non FCI counties will remain at the discretion of the breeder.

guy

Could I cross post this langhaar? I think there are some interesting points to be thought of within other breeds

langhaar

This pertains to the Deutsch Langhaar Verband but no problem Guy. Interesting this week a UK bitch not owned but bred by ourselves was refused permission to use a German Deckruden.

guy

Many thanks - I appreciate it is a Langhaar thing at the moment - but I can see a scenario where the thinking and resolve behind the decision is taken up by other breeds.

langhaar

I think so too Guy, our lack of testing and breeding programmes will also affect importations from Scandinavia as Sweden, Finland , Denmarkand Norway had representatives at this meeting. The UK was not invited as we are not members of the FCI.

All our UK bred breeding stock will now be dual registered with the Irish KC but testing for natural aptitude, breeding to type and compulsary health screening acceptability by the DLV in UK bred dogs remains unclear.
Uk field results in their opinion, are regarded as meritus but only in field skills. Tracking and prolonged swimming are not tested over here. These skills, in their opinion are essential and must be protected to preserve breed characteristics.

I was asked to JGHV test in the UK because they don't want this breed to become just another pointing breed in the rest of the world.

guy

The German CBV - Club Bretonische Vorstehunde German Brittany Club test their dogs and publish all the results in the club magazine. This becomes a most useful document for breeders to see how their puppies have turned out and also to aid breeding choices.

Will it be possible for a breed club in the UK to operate to the direction / strictures of a breed home country club? From memory the KC does not allow UK clubs to be under the influence of other bodies than itself.

langhaar