| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| druimmuir |
Tail Docking Petition - ScotlandI am posting a link to a petition I have been asked to sign to try and re-instate tail docking of working dogs in Scotland under regulations, please take a minute to read and sign :-Hi, I wanted to draw your attention to this important petition that I recently signed: "Petition to reinstate tail docking for working dogs in Scotland" [url]http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/taildocking?e [/url I really think this is an important cause, and I'd like to encourage you to add your signature, too. It's free and takes less than a minute of your time. Thanks |
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| cressy |
I just wondered if there is any validity to having signatures from people living elsewhere in the UK? | ||||
| druimmuir |
Yes the more signatures the better, surely signatures from elsewhere can't be a bad thing ?
Nicola |
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| Claire |
I was involved in the various petitioning and demonstrations outside parliament in the lead up to the ban so obviously I will sign this petition and will be getting as many other people to do so. I do hope, however, that should the ban be partially or fully reversed, that there is no clause about showing like there is south of the border.
Sue's question is appropriate because when I was involved in the collection of signatures last time round, it was pointed out to us that whilst ALL signatures are needed, those from people resident in Scotland are likely to be viewed in a stronger light. |
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| BlackIsler |
Fingers crossed - they'll see sense this time
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/taildocking?e This will get you straight there. |
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| BritAnnie |
Personally I think the situation in Scotland is far clearer than in England and Wales. We cannot dock, there is no grey area - and any dog can be shown, whether docked or not. I don't like my breed with tails, so I will hope I can keep a nice natural bobtail. Why not follow Dr Bruce Cattanach's example instead?(Steynmere Boxers - documented on the 'net http://www.steynmere.com/BOBTAILS.html) All breeds have had others introduced to improve them so why not the short tail?
BA |
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| druimmuir |
I give up .... Nicola |
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| druimmuir |
Thanks Blackisler for sorting the link out for me 
Nicola |
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| sako75 |
Thanks for the link Nicola , Christine and I have signed !!
Barry .
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| countrygirl |
I have signed and have to say that I totally disagree with Anne sorry dont know how to do the quote thing, lets just all start cross breeding then shell we to try and get bobbed tails 
Caz |
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| Bareve |
The Boxer bob tail testing was done very much as a test scenario. OK it did "eventually" produce a line of naturally short tails suitable for Boxers. Off hand I do not know how many litters it took to get to this stage and how many puppies before he got to the stage.
Can you honestly think the KC would allow each and every breeder of docked breeds to play with test matings in this same way? What happens to the surplus of puppies - who takes them on? Isn't there enough dogs going through breed and general rescue without adding any more to the numbers? Surely our breed is no different to the others HPR where good specialist, suitable homes aren't readily available and I personally wouldn't want to breed so many puppies simply to attempt to produce a dog with the required breed points and a naturally shortened tail. I don't want to work and show a GWP with a full tail but if the law dictates that this is the only way then so be it. I fought along with most since the CDB was created and was so determined not to give in but unlike the hunting fraternity the dog world didn't seem to be able to, or wish to, maintain the momentum to take it as far as we could do to challenge the law. I also agree with Claire inso much it would not be such a good idea for us "dual purpose" people to lose the ability to show north of the border without the same restrictions we do down south of the border. I have always been incredibly amazed that the powers to be made this ban applicable to working dogs in a country really geared up towards gundogs and shooting 
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| druimmuir |
Really glad too see no-ones taking the cross breeding natural bob tail suggestion seriously ! 
Thanks to those that have signed so far, much appreciated. Claire as yet I am not sure what the regulations will be regards showing if we win an exemption, James Scott at BASC is the man behind this current petition, I might drop him a line and find out what the regulations proposed would be. Thanks again Nicola |
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| Bareve |
I had a quick scan through the notes that Bruce Cattanach wrote about his "project" as he put it. Some very interesting basics - not verbatim as I was scanning but:- a) apparently he started to use a line in Boxers which already had natural bob tails in it b) his project took 5 generations and although he ended up having over 50% of bobtails or naturally shortened tails he still had over 50 or 80 (couldn't remember) puppies in this project and not all looked like Boxers c) initially the progeny couldn't be KC registered - he had to aply to the KC for permission to register those dogs which he wanted to continue and use in his project. So as I said for each breed even to consider a project such as this what an explosion of cross bred puppies to be homed and then without a natural bob tail gene in both breeds it might take longer than the 5 generations he played with. As for BASC - they unfortunately were the body who wouldn't see the reasoning about the percentage of working dogs who were dual pupose and still wanted to retain the right to be shown at event. Their views were working dogs were working dogs and show dogs were show dogs and didn't need to be docked. Hence my reason to cease being a member 
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| Helen |
Will sign in a minute but just wanted to agree with Sharon re: BASC. I can't see them showing an interested in showing at all.
Helen |
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| cressy |
I wasn't trying to be difficult btw, I am neither pro or anti docking having some quite ambivalent feelings on the matter. What I am is pro-choice so I have signed all the relevant docking ban petitions.
I just feel that the predominant signatories for a Scottish Law change have to come from Scotland to be taken seriously. |
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| windem bang |
I am sorry that Basc took that attitude but I can understand why they did so. Allowing some show dogs to be docked but not any of the others would I.M.O. weaken the case for docking. Far too many owners of dogs which are of traditionally docked gundog breeds which are only shown and rarely ,if ever, worked would try to avail themselves of the loophole. I know this would happen - I have already spoken to people who say they would do exactly that.
A grey area would be created. I think this problem needs sorted out one way or the other. Reading back over this I'm not sure it makes much sense but I know what I mean !  I think  
Bill T. |
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| Bareve |
I think I understand what you mean Bill
Basically what Basc wouldn't understand was that there were some people out there with "working" dogs (either regular shoot members or dogs with awards) who also enjoyed showing. I still have the email somewhere and the person who replied to me simply couldn't understand that we were talking about individuals and not necessarily by breed. So the angle I was trying to get them to understand was that if a dog was legally docked (i.e. HPR, spaniel, Terrier) why shouldn't they be legally shown? Even my MP eventually realised what I was trying to get across to him as he kept saying "you can dock your working gundogs" which I knew but I also wanted to show them!! It was the government/RSPCA/Defra who dealt the blow over showing as the Defra representative that I spoke to at the Westminster briefing knew from speaking to the Swedish KC that not having a showing ban meant that people were able to get around the ban and still breed/show docked dogs. The Defra chap did not want to know about legally docked working dogs were technically legal so why couldn't they be shown! There are also HPR's who have been docked from parent/s who haven't even been worked in any sense of the word so one must assume they have a "friendly" vet, or have a family member with a shotgun licence, or a friendly landowner who could write the letter. Likewise as many of the show secretaries have said that the showing ban isn't a KC ban it's law. So they wouldn't stop anyone from turning up and showing with a docked dog at those shows where you have to pay as they wouldn't be able to do anything other than inform the police and do you honestly think the police would keep coming out and dealing with these sorts of complaints? By the same token the lesser known people/breeders would get away with it whereas the bigger profile people would be on top of jealous exhibitors "hit list" with the local police station phone number on their mobiles
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| Helen |
I can see where you are coming from as well Bill. BASC are a shooting organisation and that's what they were defending. I actually think they do a fairly decent job on the whole.
RSPCA - PAH! Their ridiculous statement last week about killing a certain species to protect another is ethically wrong. For goodness sake! Are they not in the real world?! What about the predator control that goes on?? Sorry, RSPCA rant there - sorry! lol I wonder if anyone is going to test the docking law with regards to showing a docked dog where the public have to pay? lol. Just think how many hunting convictions there has been since the ban - not many! Helen |
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| druimmuir |
I can see what people are saying about BASC, I had the same problem with CDB but the other way round, it seemed to me that CDB favoured showing and had very little interest in their working dog membership, once docking was restricted in England and the showing regulations came into place the CDB didn't want to know about the next stage which was the ban in Scotland, and had v little interest in working dogs full stop, I got very little from them and ceased my membership.
Seems we can't find any organisations that cater for both parties. Nicola |
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| Bareve |
The CDB was always for "all" docked breeds and they were very much fighting the "right" for people to make their own minds up. I know they were disappointed when BASC and one other Countryside group (cant remember who it was) started to fight for the right to dock working puppies as the CDB still wanted it for all breeds and not just the "chosen few". I spoke to the CDB spokesman a few times and I know he had a few run-in's with BASC and he wished they could be an united front but the two groups were going down separate roads
Once the ban came in it seems the majority of people just accepted it and despite CDB being quite prepared to keep on fighting many people stopped their membership and as such the CDB lost the momentum. This is basically what I said from the outset - the dog world as such accepted the law whereas the hunting fraternity took the decision on and are still fighting it. It seems the dog people, as a whole, were simply not of the same "fighting" ilk of the hunting world. In addition the dog world people never really thought a docking ban would happen - head in sand ....... Once the MP's passed the animal welfare act and it then had to go to the Lords I was astonished at the amount of gundog people who said to me "what can we do - we will do anything" when in fact they should have been fighting the act for as many years as the CDB was in operation
As you can see I got a bit involved in fighting for the right to retain docking  As for this particular fight for the Scottish law - has anyone spoken to Jean Fairlie as she really did fight very hard for the Scottish people and she is "very" knowledgeable about this topic?
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| windem bang |
I ceased being a BASC member some years ago but I can see that since most of their membership who have a traditionally docked breed have spaniels not H.P.R. 's, that BASC thought it might be better for the majority of their membership, if they disassociated themselves from any show involved breeds or groups of people.
Personally I think the docked breed folk should have stuck together like glue to fight this very bad bit of legislation. Bad laws are made to be challenged. Bigger numbers coming at them from all angles giving them real trouble might have made the legislators think harder or even think again just a little bit more than the piecemeal disjointed defence that was put up. I don't really think most HPR's need to be docked but I think we should have the right to do so. As things stand at present I feel the show folk are a millstone around the neck of those who wish to work a docked dog. I do understand BASCS attitude for standing away from our breeds due to the strong show - never work attitudes of many of our breeds owners. I have very mixed feelings about all this but I think the right to dock should have been kept. Bill T. |
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| druimmuir |
I know what you mean I even landed myself on tv for landward trying to get people involved and the bbc radio news etc but by then it was too late, I too was angered by the head in the sand approach and thats what we have to thank now for the ban, I only hope now that we are trying to change that and be on a par with an exemption for working breeds that people will take notice and take 5 mins to sign or send a letter to Alex Salmond. Pardon my ignorance but not heard of Jean Fairlie ? Nicola |
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| Bareve |
[quote="druimmuir"]
She is a Weimaraner person living in Scotland - maybe one of the Claire's would have a contact email for her as I was judging with her at an event 2 years ago and I was very impressed with her knowledge about the proposed (as it was then) animal welfare act and she seemed to be also very "legal speaking" (might be the area in which she works). I know on the day she was very much of the ilk to fight, keep fighting and come out again fighting
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| BritAnnie |
I fought as hard as anyone to retain docking but I just get sick and tired of hitting my head against that brick wall. All these petitions should have been done before the bill got to the first reading. I can't see that this one will have any effect. Hear of bolting the stable door etc???
Incidentally, I don't like cross breeds either and I won't let Al be used on any other breed (I HAVE been asked), just thought it might be an interesting sideline to this thread. I wasn't aware there were any bobtail boxers before Bruce started this experiment - can't see there'd have been much point in him doing it if there were already bobtail boxers in existence, and he certainly didn't tell me that when I was speaking to him before he came to lecture our Club last year. In what part of his papers did you see that, Sharon? BA |
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| druimmuir |
[quote="Bareve"]
Thanks Sharon, sounds like a good person to be speaking too !! appreciate that
Britannie we are all fed up of banging our heads against the brick wall but look at the hunting bill we are still apposing that so why should we lie down and take it over the docking ban ?????? If we all stick our heads in the sand and just accept docking is banned here then we only have ourselves to blame I for one would rather we kept fighting it at least then and only then can we say we have tried !! Nicola |
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| Claire |
Nicola I will PM you Jean's details. What she doesn't know about the docking ban you could write on a postage stamp and still have space She is the parliamentary liaison officer for SKC so she has to know all the legal stuff as well.
Sooooo many people had their heads in the sand when we were fighting like mad to avoid a ban. Jean handed over a petition to parliament prior to the ban, it had over 5000 signatures on it if I remember correctly, but it was ignored. I sat in the spectators gallery at parliament and listened to the crap that was being spilled out, it was VERY frustrating 
I find this whole docking ban very frustrating and whilst an outright ban is easier to manage than a partial ban, I much prefer the partial ban because it would mean I could have a litter out Whistle (if I decided to do so) and still have them docked. I would rather reduce the amount of showing I do than have a weimaraner with a long tail
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| countrygirl |
Claire
I have to say I totally agree with you
Caz |
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| josie |
I still remember going to Westminster with Slate to protest against the docking ban. This was an opportunity to COVER the grass outside Westminster with docked, working gundogs. We should have had so many dogs there that MPs had to FIGHT their way through to get inside. The number of dogs which turned up was pitiful. (Ok, so it was held on a weekday, but it had to be in order to be during working hours for MPs!) We could have made a huge statement and a massive protest with people kitted out in full shooting regalia, hundreds of gundogs of all different breeds and so on - what we ended up with was about 12-15 dogs. Most of them were spaniels. Slate and a couple of GWPs were the only HPRs. If I were an MP and walked past a protest like that, I'd have concluded that no one really cared about this docking law thing! Not having a go, and I'm sure everyone is going to say they knew nothing about it/they had to work etc, but even taking that into account, I'd have expected more dogs. (This is nothing to do with Scotland so a bit OT.)
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| druimmuir |
Josie
Not OT at all, it's just what we have been fighting all over the uk more so than any ban and thats the "head in the sand " and " it will never be passed " attitudes which have ruined a lot of things..... Nicola |
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| Helen |
Look at the hunting ban though....how many people marched against that? I went down to London for the last one and they had, how many people??...did that make any difference whatsoever! No. People are sick to death of the government walking over us. Everything I enjoy, everything I do, someone is trying to ban somewhere. It ranges from docking, snaring to e-collars. The sooner the tories get in, the better because Labour has not done the countryside any good whatsoever!
I'm certainly not saying don't fight, we should be fighting, but you can see why people get sick of constantly banging their heads against a brick wall. Rant over, blame it on the heat and the hormones lol Helen |
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| Bareve |
I totally agree Josie but this "was" one of the best kept secrets in the campaign to keep docking as I only found out about it after the event because so few people went to it. I went to the hunting demo's in London and I certainly would have gone to London with a handful of GWP's but not sure who was the organiser but I know for a fact most of the "pro" GWP's people didn't know about it until afterwards! |
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| Bareve |
I did say I was scanning his articles but on his first article he mentions buying two unrelated naturally short tailed Boxers and breeding those but all the puppies had full tails so he concurred that the short tails on these two were not necessarily affected by hereditary means. The actual bobtail line he mentions was the Corgi line. So I was not quite correct in my original email but nearly
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| Bareve |
You might consider it a rant Helen but oh so truthful
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| josie |
It was organised by BASC, I don't remember where it was advertised but it was definitely on the BASC website. (TBH, it was actually fun to take Slate to central London and be in such a weird environment - I kept expecting to see pheasants flying over the HoP!) | ||||
| Bareve |
I do think that the existing law for England and Wales will not be changed for the better - if anything I think it could change for the worse in respect of a total ban.
On the basis that initially the Welsh Assembly had a total ban in place for Wales and some very strong late campaigning made them bring in the same law that England had enabled the Welsh working dogs to be docked. As far as I can see there is a glimmer of a hope that with enough campaigning and fighting the Scottish law could be changed, with an amendment, and allow the same docking choice for working dogs and at least bring it into line with the rest of the UK. So on that angle alone it has "got" to be worth another fight
One thing is for sure it will never be completely over turned
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| Bareve |
Well as I said I resigned my BASC membership over their total disregard to the likes of myself with working dogs who also wanted to show. Plus if they hadn't been trying to fight the CDB at the same time they could have used the CDB and their database to circulate the protest to a far bigger audience. Shame - a real wasted opportunity
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