Tail docking

Alkemist · Tail docking

I have an enquiry from someone who has experience with shooting over dogs and I think they would like a docked pup - where do I stand with it? I'm not sure if it will be a dog or bitch and they may need pick of litter - is it worth trying or shall I just leave them undocked?

Thanks again

Nina

Claire

You would have to be able to abide by the rules surrounding legal docking and you would have to be willing to leave a tail on one dog at an age whereby you cannot possibly tell if it is a dog you would want to work, show or keep as a pet.

Personally, if I had the choice, I wouldn't dock just one pup and equally I wouldn't leave a tail on just one pup should someone request it. It would be all or nothing for me.

Benreeda

We can't dock for any reason in Scotland . In England would think it is not worth getting one tail done and then might not be one they want. Plenty people will take pups with a tail. I had no problems even with people who were going to work them. I am getting used to my pups with tails although have stood on the tails as forget they have them LOL I do have bruised legs to remind me.

josie

Nina, you might lose a working home for a pup if you don't dock. I mean, they might want one to the extent that they won't take it undocked. Can you get a sense of how much they want it docked, is it just a preference thing or is it an absolute?

When we were looking for a SRP, one of the reasons we went all the way to Ireland was to get a docked pup and we felt quite strongly about that. (I think we feel less strongly about it now, but that was at the height of all the docking crisis stuff.)

You would probably have to pick one at birth for them, so they wouldn't be able to choose their own puppy and you wouldn't be able to assign them the one which is showing most working potential at 7 wks. You don't need to work dogs yourself, but you'll need evidence from the new owner that the dog will be worked (like shotgun cert etc).

Here is some info: http://www.basc.org.uk/content/gundogdepttaildocking

countrygirl

I wouldent want an undocked dog. Are your pups already on the way becasue then you will have to pull your finger out to find a vet to dock ect. I think you would have to go all or nothing docking wise as you cannot tell which pup has working potential at 2 days old. I dont quite understand what Josie said about you needing to see proof from the potential owner that they are going to work it, you will need to supply proof to the vet that docks that it is your intention to sell the pups to the best of your knowlege to working homes and he may require proof that you work your dog(or perhaps she is meaning the one puppy to be docked Question

) I know it has been said that there is a market for undocked dogs but but when you look at the various for sale sites it seems the undocked ones take longer to sell and in general from the eye I have been keeping on wirehairs they arnt selling well atall

Caz

weima

countrygirl

Thanks Claire,

Wookies breeder used his shotgun certificate but haddent thought about it from the point of view if the breeder who dosent work dogs themself being able to use the new 'rules'

Caz

BritAnnie

As Pat says we can't dock - life is so much simpler. None of my puppy buyers even mentioned the tails till I did. I must admit I didn't know you could have a pup docked if it's prospective owner was going to work it. That to me is much more sensible than having the whole litter docked just because the bitch owner has been beating with her and has a friendly shoot captain. If a working bitch has 10 puppies what are the guarantees that all ten will also be worked?
BA

weima

The law doesn't say that all must be worked but are likely and it is this word which is important IMO Wink

Where there's a will.....

Pagan's last litter were all docked even though I only had 3 booked for working. Once the pups were docked & I contacted the owners 2 said they had changed their minds about a pup Rolling Eyes

Only 1 went to a working home in the end.

If you have people on a waiting list & you now they are only wanting a pet you cannot dock that puppy.

It is confusing & I agree that in Scotland at least you know what to do which is not dock.

Alkemist

but what if I had someone sign a contract and register with the gspa for training?

and what if I could produce x number of enbquiry letters for docked pups?

I remember going through all this rigmoroll (sp) when the 'first' docking 'ban' came out.

Nina

Benreeda

I think eventually there will be a total ban in England. It has made things simple for us we just can't dock. Some people want to work and show so better with tails as can go to any show they want in England. In Scotland it doesn't matter as can go to any show whatever. I don't know who is going to police this anyway as the KC are not going to and if anyone at a show or anywhere else thinks a dog is illegally docked they would have to report it themselves Twisted Evil

Blue

agreed, don't know what you're worried about, it's an unenforceable law anyway - we have lots of laws like that - just ignore it.

BritAnnie

Hmmm, I have just come back from a shoot where one of the dogs was a young Springer bitch which has been re-homed to a working home from a pet one. She has a full tail and this morning when hunting hard in the woodland she came out with a bloodied tail. I hadn't realised how easy it could happen.

cressy

Annie, I have had a dog with tail damage and I can honestly say that I would never want to have an undocked spaniel that I was intending to work in thick cover.

josie

I've had several spaniels come to class with bloodied tails, as they won't heal. Bearing in mind this is pet dog class, and these dogs aren't even worked, I think that says something!

Benreeda

Over the years I have had irish Setters damage tails and it is difficult to heal. The blood goes everywhere it is awful

karenb

Greyghost

I think that docking some and not others does not potentially give new owners a dog that would suit their needs. A lot of breeders I know select the pup to suit the new owners and this cannot be done so early in a pups life.

Which leads me to asking the question - do you let new owners pick their own pups?

weima

karenb

Great question ..

I usually try to match pups to people so making choices about which pups to dock and which to leave could also prove problematic. What if the pup I dock is shy and the pup who's tail is intact is the boldest little soul who would relish life as a working dog ..

Have pondered this issue and considered leaving some pups undocked but having considerd the prop and cons of such a plan have decided to dock all the pup in the next litter with the aim that they will be worked.

I have invited people to contact me if they may be interested in pups but do not take orders/accept deposits etc until pups are old enough to view/assess.

Karen

Greyghost

karenb

[quote="Greyghost"]
With so many dogs in rescue these days I think it is wise to have a 'puppy list' and welcome the day it becomes the norm.[/quote ]

I have names of people "potentially" interested in a puppy and let them know my plans etc. Once pups are on the ground they may still be interested and IF we have something that suits them the general enquiry may become a sale. However until they are on the ground and we assess the litter non of the pups are definately booked & no deposits taken. Hence the statement I do not have an "order list" as such.

I would certainly feel twitchy if I didn't have a few people potentially intersted in a pup before we mated the bitch, especially in this current climate.

Karen

Greyghost

As you say Karen it's purely a waiting list of interested people. The list can change very quickly as people become impatient and seek elsewhere for pups so it is a good idea to stay in touch with potential new owners and keep them up to date with your plans. It also helps you to get to know any new owners to the breed and see just how serious they are.

When I got my first Weim I wanted her like yesterday Rolling Eyes

. I went through the KC list and could have so easily ended up with a puppy farmer and little or no health checks. If I ever get another pup I know how to do the homework now and am quite happy to wait for the right mating. Smile

Benreeda

I tell people I will take a note of their details and let them know when the pups are born but they can phone anytime and enquire if the bitch is getting fatter or even if I have mated the bitch successfully.
I give them the third degree when they phone and find out all about their way of life and why they want a wire. I had one chap wait for a pup from us as he said he knew I cared when I asked him lots of questions. He is going to work the pup but didn't mind about it having a tail. If he wanted one of ours he knew we couldn't dock in Scotland he actually lives in the south of England. All the people getting pups from the last litter let us choose which one they got but apart from one with patches they all looked much the same so only temperament s were different and we tried to match up pups to people. I do actually tell people that if i don't like them when i meet them they don't get a pup. Many years ago a woman came to see Irish Setter pups and was wearing a white suit!! I let her meet the adults, as usual, and she was very worried about getting hair on her suit. Twisted Evil

I told her to go to Toys R Us and get a stuffed dog as this would suit her best. We don't breed very often as finding good homes is a worry. I thought when I told people the pups were being hand reared this would worry them but it made them really interested in their progress. I had to keep taking photo's

Greyghost

I like the bit about going to Toys R Us Laughing

. But don't be too harsh, I can remember the day when if I had touched a dog I would hold my hand away from me until I had washed it. Now I forget I have just been digging stuff out of her eyes and poking around her mouth and stick my finger in my mouth without realising. How times change eh Razz

I know my breeder was most upset with me for going back to work so soon after getting a pup, albeit part time. She wanted me to take the pup back. I only lasted 4 weeks at work anyway and have never been back Laughing

. That was 12 years ago Shocked

.

Benreeda

I don't mind people working part time or if they can take a dog to work then full time. I really depends on the person. By the way the woman didn't get a pup as decided not for her. Don't know if she got a stuffed one. Laughing

Emma_

Also here we don't have to think about docking or not because it is not allowed. I remember when it was prohibited and a lot of hunters were very worried ending up with dogs with injured tails. The funny thing was that we have a Finnish breed that is used almost exclusively for hare hunting,
the Finnish Hound. This is an old breed and it has NEVER been docked, although possessing a long tail. I have never heard the owners of these dogs complain about tail injuries. Still, all of a sudden all the owners of pointers were so worried about it.
It turns out the long tail is not a problem in the hunting pointers. This is not even discussed anymore. And it is fair to say that we have a quite rough terrain where the dogs work.
The tail injury is just as likely to happen in a non-working dog, I know this by experience. Had a dalmatian who injured his tail somehow and it bled from time to time, never healed fully. He was never hunted with so...
My friend imported a weim from England and the breeder left two puppies undocked because another puppy was going to Norway I think. My friend had to take what she got of course and the puppy was paid for in advance because the breeder said she would not get it sold in England.

As for picking a puppy, I remember a breeder who didn't want to sell a puppy to a family who had a child with bad hair. In the end, she sold the puppy to them but that actually turned out to be a mistake as there was a lot of problems and she had to take the puppy back after some time. So watch out for bad hair! And another breeder didn't sell puppies to people she thought were driving the wrong sort of car Laughing

Even if I get to choose the puppy I alway listen to the breeder's advice because she/he has seen the puppies for a longer time and has seen more of their characteristics.

tashap

nina I'd go with the whole litter being docked rather than just the one or retaining all the tails, if the person is adament that they want a docked pup then I would ask which sex and have them pay up front for the puppy the same as the old rules for if they wanted a puppy with the tail left on but have a clause in it for if there is a health problem with the pup or if its lost prior to being available for homing.

On the plus side I see no problem with working a dog with a tail, I put Graf through his paces (and I really did push him hard on through the tough stuff not just the odd bramble or two) and he had no injuries beyond the odd thorn which all the dogs get from time to time, certainly no problem with his tail, if anything if was an asset. You will need a copy of his shotgun certificate for the vet or a letter from his keeper as you don't work yours.

On the subject of Spaniels and Labs injuring tails I've seen a mix of both labs who always keep the tail and get damaged and spaniels who've been docked getting an injury depends on the dog and the terrain.

Having a puppy list is certainly no guarantee I had a good list prior to my pups being born could have sold a litter of 12 bitches to good homes without any problems at all but I got all males in the for sale lot so was scuppered.

I don't mind them going to homes where people work if they are experienced and I've seen their other dogs but I did have one couple who came round where the woman was at home all day and the husband in the army but resident in the UK as he was a trainer and she kept dropping the puppies off her lap.... told her to go and buy a nice piece of jewellery from New Zealand over the internet!!! Same went to the idiot looking for a dog and a bitch to breed from who wanted dogs from 'a line that throws big litters' I won't repeat what I put in the email but it was rude!!

weima

Sally

Having been so very pro-docking - to the extent of writing hundreds of letters to MPs etc during the docking campaign, my attitude has changed by having an undocked boy.

I had decided not to dock my last litter as I wanted to show and work a dog but I had three brilliant working homes who had had Weims before and they wanted a docked pup so I did what I have told people never to do (!!!!) and had my vet dock half the litter. Good advice from friends in similar situations told me to make my assessment as soon as they were born - while wet when you could see the shape of the dog clearly, not easy when the bitch is busy popping pups. So my decision to dock was based on length of body (easy to see on a Weim) and birth weight. I tried to pair the pups - two bitches of similar appearance, one docked, one not. In the end it worked out really well - the new owners knew the score and were happy to have a pup from working parents.
But probably the most interesting point was the length of the tails in the litter - they were all much shorter than usual, something noted by my vet too. My undocked boy has a thick tail that does not reach his hocks - its not to the breed standard of course! but with docking likely to be banned in the future due to the number of people flouting the rules just to sell the pups, the way forward has to be to breed dogs with tails that are shorter and less likely to be damaged.

Benreeda

Who would ever know if the tip was taken off the tail. I have heard that some weim people have done this. I couldn't have done this as pups were too weak to have any shock. Actually if we could have docked in Scotland don't know what I would have done.

Claire

That is really interesting to read Sally and also quite comforting! I am in a position whereby I am considering taking a litter from my bitch, don't want to not dock, but the law is against me living in Scotland Sad

Interesting about the tail lengths too! Now we just need to work on keeping them at that length Smile

weima

The tail length wants removing from the Weimaraner standard as if we are to breed for shorter tails the standard at the moment won't allow it as it states the tail must be to the hock Rolling Eyes

Liz

Surely at the moment the tail length specified in breed standards is more or less a matter of guess work, as we have had so few undocked HPRs in the past. We are now at the stage where we are seeing the natural tails and can say "I like that one" and possibly have something to aim for.

windem bang

My old G.S.P. bitch Taz is now 11 years old and she has been working since about 8 months old, mainly picking up but with some hunting. She has a full length tail and it hasn't given a minutes bother. Buck on the other hand is fast approaching two years old and he is missing a lot of hair from his tail. It goes like a blur as he works and gets rubbed bare on cover - as does the front edge of his ears.

Taken overall I don't think H.P.R.'s need to be docked - not for work purposes anyway!

Bill T.

Sally

If you feel the end of my pup's tail you can detect a flat piece of cartilage / gristle that sticks out the end - I'm told its not present on a tipped dog. Since the number of vertebrae in the tail is not fixed, its difficult to tell in an x-ray, unless of course the tipping has left a partial vertebrae
my pups half sister has a long tail that reaches well beyond the hock, is thin and far more likely to be damaged. His in comparison is thick and far less noticeable, in fact its not much longer than the long docks that are favoured by some breeders

I hope we will be paying attention to tails - since the number of vertebrae is variable, we have a chance of breeding for shorter tails, although I don't know the genetics of this, but suspect its recessive.

Benreeda

If a tail is banded there is nothing to feel on the end and wouldn't know docked but for some reason if cut there is a bit of bone which can be felt.

Alkemist

Well there are some great discussions relating to tail length in the breed here. It will be interesting to see what happens as time progresses.

I guess when it all comes down to it you guys in Scotland at least know you cannot dock, the legislation that we have here is just a minefield. I never realised how much until I had this request. It would be much easier to send the bitch over to the country where the enquiry has come from, as the whole litter could be docked without a moments thought, but my bitch is part of the family so I can't see a way of that happening.

I know for sure that it will either be all or nothing, how can I give pick of litter if it has to be decided at birth which one is pick. Soooo we will see. Thanks again for some of the really positive pointers and advice Smile

In the meantime, I will continue to advertise the litter as undocked, as at this stage they still will be.

Nina

BritAnnie

Alkemist

Annie, I am going to try that just to see what happens - I'll try and see which one I think is going to be pick, and I'll see if it is. Of course might have an issue if there are no identifiable markings Smile

lol

I'm enjoying hearing about all these little things that different people do, it's really enlightening.

Nina

Benreeda

I look when born but then wait and see who catches my eye when running around. I put them on the table one at a time and go over and we write down good and bad points of each puppy. We are not usually wrong. By six or seven weeks we can finally decide. So far our pups have been even in type so hasn't been easy but would be easier with a mixed litter. We also let other people see them and it is interesting to see who they pick.

BritAnnie

Yes, I sent photos to a few people too - including Pat - I was pretty sure when they were born that the bitch was the best - only three this time but she was defintiely best of the three. Four Championship judges were sentphotos at 4 weeks in show stance and all four picked her out as definitely being pick. I have showing rights over her and their daughters are going to take her to ringcraft and go into child handling. In time she may be bred from but finding a good stud in Scotland to match my breeding lines is not possible at the moment.

Benreeda

We had fun with one litter as friends came to see the pups and I had written down different points and gave them each a copy to mark out of 5 for each point.
head, coat, shoulders, front, ribs, body length, stifle, tail set, feet, overall conformation, angulation etc. I then counted up the points and we all gave the same pup most points. There was very little to chose with three of the pups so was interesting that we chose the same one. He was Ghost's Wighoules!!!

tashap

The only identifying marks I had was the bitch as the rest were males and one of the males taking after his sister in type where as the rest were pees in a pod, even weights at 3 weeks so even lost the recognisable size difference.

Two of mine had longer tails than the others not by much by definitely more noticable when they were altogether around the food bowl.

Have you decided how your going to mark them yet to track whose who? I tried the wool strands but wasn't happy with it ended up with nail colours which worked out well.

Definitely struggled to pick out of the males the bitch in shape was the best in the litter although I'd have liked a lighter colour gradient, went with the second choice out of the males in the end but am happy with it.

Benreeda

I used to mark the irish Setters with nail varnish inside the ear. I marked tight ear on one and left ear on another then a different colour for another two and so on. Lipstick is another thing that can be used.

Liz

My Wei pups wore different colours nail varnish - very chic Very Happy