tails or lack of them

guy · tails or lack of them

can someone tell me what is the position on tail docking in other EU countries at the moment?

munstyman

Quick search found this:
www.cdb.org/euro.htm
although it looks a little out of date Rolling Eyes

Peter

guy

thanks Munstyman - I had been on cdb site but failed to see that one - call it a senior moment Laughing

josie

Due to a bit of investigating I've been doing recently, I've discovered that it is and will remain perfectly legal to import dogs/pups from abroad, with docked tails - even after the docking ban. And you don't need to get a microchip and certificate for docking purposes done, if coming from abroad. However, the ban on showing in the UK, at shows which charge an entry fee will still apply.

Although when importing from continental Europe, people will have to wait until the pup is old enough to be brought in under the Pet Passport scheme (9/10 months), if you import from Ireland you can import a docked pup with no problems. (Ireland is rabies free and there's free movement of dogs between UK and Ireland with no Pet Passport.)

Personally, I see this as only encouraging puppy farming in Ireland, as people in the UK who want a docked pup are just going to import one from Ireland..... Rolling Eyes

johnhod

Could you kennel the pregnant bitch in Ireland, have the docking carried out and then bring the docked pups and the bitch back? Though perhaps this would prove too expenive an option.[/img]

guy

thanks for the thoughts - question is hypothetical as yet. I am wondering about a puppy from EU and was wondering if I had the decision about the tail.

Presumably puppies come within the passport scheme and I would need it vaccinated and then to wait 6 months before importing.

josie

John - That's a good question. I've been emailing a v useful woman at Defra, who has been helping me with all these sorts of questions. I really was expecting one line answers from somewhere like Defra, but instead I've been getting hugely detailed emails from her which are very useful. If you want to contact her and ask, her email is: animal.welfareact@defra.gsi.gov.uk

Guy - Yes, if you import from the EU, your dog can be docked. And you don't need to get any of the silly certification or microchipping etc to say that it was legally docked as a working dog - it will be proof enough that it was imported from a country where docking continues. (The UK KC will have records that it was imported, which will serve as proof for this.)

However, yes you are right that it will have to be within the Pet Passport scheme. Pups can't have the rabies jab until they are 12 wks old at the earliest, then you need to wait for a few weeks (2 wks I think) before you can titre test. Then you'd need to wait 6 months from the result of a good titre test. This all means that the earliest you could import the dog would be around 9/10 months. Nina (Alkemist) on here would be able to tell you more about this, as she imported a Weim pup from Europe.

Ireland is the exception as they are also rabies free and the Pet Passport scheme doesn't apply to them. So you can import a pup as young as 7 wks.

guy

Josie - thanks.
Entry into UK is at six months from the date the blood was taken - if the blood test proved satisfactory, not the date of the titre. Or so it was with the two I take out from this country, so assume the same would apply from EU

josie

Yes, you're totally right - Slate had hers done 2 yrs ago now! I think it still works out to be around 9/10 mnths old, for a pup to be imported though, even if everything goes as quick as it can.

guy

Topaz was born end Jan'y and was able to come back just after Christmas. But then i had delayed the jabs a bit - did not want him to have all puppy jabs and rabies as one hit.

Barley when we first had him - possibly 3 or 4 years old had everything n one hit and seemed ok. Anyone have any thoughts n giving all injections and anti rabies in one hit at 12 weeks.

I suppose it depends a bit on local vets protocols? In France they apparently re-vaccinate against rabies annually not tri annually as here - and they use the same vaccine. Much to the amusement of the French vet we use.

We circumvented the times a bit by insisting the dogs were tested after the first vaccination - foregoing the booster. a gamble i know but it has paid off on four dogs, saving both time and vaccine costs. Might set up a poll on that question to get a feel for others exeriences.

josie

With Slate she had 1st jab at 7 wks, 2nd at 10 wks, then rabies at 12 wks. Then our vet insisted we come back for a booster on the rabies before titre testing. He said that if she had any maternal antibodies left at 12 wks, then they would have prevented the rabies jab from working.

I think this is rubbish (in my humble, non-veterinary opinion!), because to start with her dam didn't have rabies jabs ever as she's never left the UK. So she wouldn't have any maternal antibodies to rabies from her dam! Second, if he was worried about maternal antibodies being left, it would have made more sense just to delay the initial rabies jab until he was happy she wouldn't have any antibodies left, not to give her 2 of them. I feel pretty bad that she ended up having 2 rabies jabs, as they've quite big whacks. There's no way I'd do that again.

I think that now I would have the rabies jab done later than 12 wks, maybe at 16-20 wks, but still have puppy jabs done at 7 and 10 wks. That way they can go out and be socialising earlier.

BritAnnie · tails etc

One way round this legislation is to try to include natural bobtails in our breeding programme, thus re-creating/extending the dual purpose dog that French breeders used to promote. These would be allowed to be both shown and worked since no crime has been committed. I hope to breed bob/short tails later this year or early next year depending on when my girls come into season. I advised amother breeder some months ago, who insisted they would never own a longtailed Brittany, to source a bobtailed stud dog. I understand she has been checking in France and not received a good reception. Perhaps they want to keep the good ones for themselves Wink

Annie

guy

this is going to pose an interesting problem. the French as I understand it dropped the 'short tail' from their standard because they were unable to distinguish between natural bobs and some artificial ones.

I did read somewhere - Pouchain i think who said a hunting dog should not be chosen by the length of it's tail' Very Happy

And another - Willems i think who argues about the reduction in the gene pool if breeding is limited to bobtails. Mind you someone with a good line in bobtails will no doubt make a considerable mark!

It does then beg the question will bobs be favoured over long tails in display and field?

Will have to go and read up the tailless thread on the CEB forum.

BritAnnie

Yes, but I cannot see a problem in being able to breed good quality dogs some of which are born without tails - that is generally my intention with both Allez and Belle. I just have to find the right mates to keep the quality they show now. So I believe it is just another criteria.
ALLEZ

Click to see full size image
BELLE

Click to see full size image

I also believe that as part of the EU a docking ban will come to France too, in time. I will rely on your excellent French to translate for me then, Guy, since mine is of the School variety Embarassed

Annie

guy

sorry to disappoint you about the French. My way of learning at the moment is to read french texts on Brittanys and chien d'arret. Double whammy winner - my French gets better ( I hope) I learn about the EB (i hope). What more could a man ask for when he has the love of a good woman, a fantastic dog and the odd glass of wine??

BritAnnie

Hmm - well my method is cut and paste to Babelfish! Embarassed

guy

do you find that helps? - whenever i try the very words or phrase i am having difficulty with never get translated.

BritAnnie

Have you tried this one
http://translation2.paralink.com/

tashap

not sure its possible to get a bobtailed weimaraner to be honest I am not sure its something I would want. At the moment there is an exemption for working dogs which ok you can't show but to be honest thats not my thing anyway so I am happy to still dock.

My problem will be if the breeders can't find vets that are prepared to dock the puppy on their behalf and the fact that I won't get a chance to choose the right puppy for my needs and will have to make a decision within a couple of days of birth unless I can find someone who is docking the whole litter which will be unlikely as there aren't that many worked.

BritAnnie

No, you're right. I didn't mean exactly bob-tail - that's a generic term, I meant natural short tail, sorry. I don't know which breeds they appear in but you have to be careful as some of the genes causing the short tail can also cause spinal problems.
The main reason for wanting to breed short/bob is to keep the breed dual purpose - show and work. We have too many gundogs in the UK which are either one or the other but not both. And I don't mean trialling - there are a lot of people who work their dogs who also like showing them, even if only at country fairs and the like.

weima

But Tasha, can I dock a whole litter of pups even if only mine is going to be worked? Or is it ONLY the puppy/s that will be worked that can be docked?

What proof will I need to be able to dock?

munstyman

My understanding at the moment is that vets will only dock puppies from a breeder with a working background who can reasonably persuade them that those puppies to be docked are going to be `worked' Exclamation

As a group we present a problem in that we have generally not split into `show' and `working' dogs and unlike the spaniels for example which have two distinct types and breeders of those types.
Working the proposed legislation backwards you get a better impression of what you will have to do to convince, and legally defend a vet for them to be able to dock your puppies, and indeed you as a breeder should a docked non working dog from your breeding become under scrutiny from the authorities. Whilst I am impressed with the thinking which is already taking place to `undermine ' this legislation, I would also urge a little caution Wink

We should wait and see what the Law will actually say before all shipping ourselves off to Ireland Exclamation

Personally I am very interested in how the dog shows will react and particulaly Crufts, being a KC event. Will it be a monitary position Sad

or a dog breeding position Smile

, I guess thats why the legislation is due to come into force after Crufts, so the KC will have a whole year to appraise the situation before committing themselves Exclamation

Peter

josie

Yes, I agree Peter, I really wonder what is going to happen with the dog shows. I mean - from what I understand, doesn't most of the money which dog shows make come from dogs being entered into classes? Not from members of the public wanting to walk around and spectate? (I don't remember how much it is to just spectate at a champ show, but I think it's only a few quid, and I don't think that many people come to champ shows who don't have dogs entered!) Which is all to say - why doesn't the KC just abolish the entry fee for spectators/members of the public??! Will they have the balls to do this, or will they be afraid of being seen trying to get round the law?

munstyman

Yeh Josie, not charging public will not be an issue for both champ shows , open shows and breed club shows... but Crufts is a different matter, and personally I think the KC will rather sell us working dogs down the river than jepodise such a financial resourse. After all we working dog folk are a minority so they will no doubt follow the trend at the moment and pay us no heed. Well what could we do about it Question

Write a few letters...boycote Crufts or shows in general, then we solve their problem for them Evil or Very Mad

. On the other hand if we `walked away' from KC working events on mass, that might be a different story Exclamation

Still as I have said before , lets not get ahead of ourselves, we're smart and cunning like our dogs...and we don't always do as we are told Twisted Evil

Peter

josie

Perhaps they could just keep the spectating fee for Crufts, but abolish it for all the other champ shows? Would suck not to be able to go to Crufts, but at least dogs could still be shown.

I'm intrigued by your cunning plans, when are you going to reveal all? Laughing

munstyman

When they think they have closed all the doors and locked them....thats when I come through the window Laughing

Peter

josie

The suspense is too much!

guy

that's a relief. - a red suit and chimney sprang to mind. Very Happy

BritAnnie

josie

Hmm, Father Xmas and Superman docking puppies' tails. Now there's a thought!

guy

but father hristmas would only do it once a year

josie

tashap

My understanding when I spoke to my vet was that it was specific to the puppy and not the whole litter, the person asking for the docking to be done - very much down to interpretation?

With regard to showing it is only a small minority that show and work their dogs especially in weimaraners where most dogs are unlikely to see a working field of any description so although we don't yet have a split in the breed with regard to shape we do already have an issue with ability down to temperment change. I think most will just accept that the dogs have to have tails, treat it as a cost cutting exercise and move on.

The KC is unlikely to do anything to jeopardise their revenue so I wouldn't count on them for their support. When you consider that they do not enforce the basics on litter registration I very much doubt our docking problem will be of any interest unless it was going to cause a serious dent in their revenue.

tashap

thinking about it one option that they could have would be for crufts would be split the venue and to charge for access to the market place where the stands and discover dogs are but to have the actual show rings etc free to spectators? Unlikely to work but it would be an option... pretty thin one though. Hoping over to ireland won't allow you to show your dogs, docked tail is a docked tail.

guy

If revenue is going to override tradition then the choice of the owner of a historically docked breed - assuming they wish to retain dual purpose - is Hobsons.

Tails it will have to be. How much damage does a pointing only dog suffer in it's work? i would be really interested to hear stories of working HPRs and tail damage. Munsties have feathered tails - how much do they suffer in the field?

josie

Well, it gets more and more curious.

I've been emailing the helpful woman on the email address I gave above, and I asked - what happens if a dog is born in Ireland but has a UK KC reg? She said it would still be fine to dock it after the ban, with no microchip or certification, as per at the moment.

Aha, so what we need is a big whelping centre in Ireland, where people can send their bitches to whelp!

Superman and Father Xmas, where are you?

münstermanager

That is indeed curious....

Guy, Münsters can suffer quite a bit with tails, but I don't know how it compares with other HPRs. I've heard of quite a few damaged tails even amongst those who do not work - including amputations because the tails didn't heal (too much wagging, I assume). Beecham's sister's tail is damaged (bright red when I saw her), the only undocked dog the breeder has had I believe, but she hasn't started working properly yet, so it is a worry. Wooster's (previous LM) sister also had a damaged tail and that used to make the kitchen look like a scene from a horror movie, but she'd never worked.

Last thing I saw was that Münsters were not included on the list of HPRs potentially allowed to be docked - is that still the case? I couldn't read the DEFRA thing as it kept crashing my computer.

I, too, am awaiting Peter's plan with anticipation....

Josie/Guy, I was 'talking' to someone the other day whose vet insists that dogs have 2 rabies vaccinations to ensure that it takes. Beecham only had the one but we were advised to wait one month before the blood test. I understood that the percentage of dogs failing the blood test was pretty low. As Guy said, if the blood test is OK, the dog can return to the UK six months after the initial rabies vaccination but, of course, he/she can go out of the UK prior to that.

My vet won't give the rabies innoculation within 2 weeks of any other vaccination. However, my friends in Germany say that their pup had their 12 week booster and the rabies vaccination at the same time in Germany. I do know of vets in the UK who will do them all at the same time. Beecham had his second vaccination at 10 weeks and his rabies at 13 weeks as I happened to be at the vets then, otherwise I may have waited a little longer.

Guy, my vet said that they had changed vaccines from one which had to be given every 2 years to one which had to be given every 3 years. Both are French manufactured. He told me that the French Authorities hadn't accepted a two year innoculation for many of his clients's dogs and that they had had to have yearly vaccinations. He told me to check very carefully with the French Authorities before travelling once the first year had passed. As far as I can determine, the French Authorities will accept the manufacturer's guidelines, ie 3 years in Beecham's case, for re-innoculation. There are people in the village who spend a lot of time in France and, I assume, that the Authorities class them as French residents and, as such, their dogs would have to have yearly rabies vaccinations as they do in France.....

I wonder if we had rabies in this country whether animals would have to have yearly vaccinations or whether the manufacturer's guidelines would stand....

Sue

josie

Sue -

I've had a lot of contact with Defra over the rabies subject too. Slate has the 3 yr approved rabies jab, and I don't see the point of giving it any more frequently than necessary, so I wanted to make sure it would be ok for 3 yrs. Yes, you are right that if a dog is resident in France they have to have yearly rabies jabs, as per French law.

From talking to Defra, yes, if a dog is going to France under the Pet Passport scheme, it is covered for 3 yrs if it has a 3 yr rabies jab. Your dog needs to comply with the law of the country you/it is resident in, which is the UK. If the dog stayed there long enough to be resident in France, then yes they would need annual jabs. I believe the French annual jab thing is more because of law, not because annual jabs give any greater protection than 3 yearly jabs - the 3 yearly jab has been tested to be effective for 3 years, which is how it got the license to be used for that long.

However, a lot of UK vets are misinformed about this and believe that because France wants annual jabs for their dogs, this is what we have to do if we go on holiday there - which is wrong, according to Defra. I think that, because the UK vets are not sure what they're doing with this one, they are erring on the side of caution and advising annual jabs.

The fact is that when we take Slate to France on the Chunnel, no one looks at any paperwork when we arrive there - we all just drive straight off and away. The paperwork is required for entry back into the UK. They are checking it to make sure that it complies with UK law, to allow us to return, not to see if it complies with French law. And the 3 yr rabies jab is fine under UK law.

I will post my correspondence with Defra here, because it's useful.... (if I can find it).... And also the docking info...

josie

To defra (Feb 2005):

"We are in the process of having our dog Pet-Passported and want to
travel to France with her.

Our rabies vaccine is valid for 3 years, according to our vet and the
vaccine manufacturer.

However, we have heard from other sources that French rabies
requirements are for a rabies vaccine annually, and that to be sure of
not running into problems when in France, we should have the vaccine
annually.

Please could you advise us whether we should have it annually or 3
yearly?"

From Defra:

"As far as PETS is concerned, since 03/07/04 the manufacturer's datasheet
validity time is what is accepted, i.e. if the datasheet states the
vaccine is valid for three years then it is valid for three years for
PETS.

We cannot comment on national laws, except when they impact on PETS.
However, since 03/07/04 there should be no problems as the two areas are
exclusive. If you wish to travel as part of PETS then you must comply
with the PETS rules: if you wish to live in France then you must comply
with French national law."

Deciding this was clear as mud, I replied:

"Please could you tell me if I am understanding this correctly:

If we lived in another PETs country, then we would have to comply
with their national law, I fully understand that. BUT we do NOT have
to comply with it if we are only visiting under the PETs scheme, is
that right?? (We have only to comply with the PETs scheme and not
with national laws of other countries - is that correct?)

I do feel a bit that your answer is unclear and indecisive!

We do NOT have to comply with national laws if we are only visiting
under the PETs scheme, is that right??"

Defra replied:

"1) Yes, if you lived in another country then your pets would be subject
to that countries national laws.

2) If you are on holiday in another country for a short amount of time
(up to a month) then your pet must comply with the rules of the scheme
and THAT COUNTRY'S NATIONAL LAWS WILL NOT APPLY."

Phew!!!!!!!!!!!!

josie

Sue - on the subject of docking - when I spoke to Defra about this, they said that the new revised details (consultation, thing, I don't know what to call it) have now gone back to Parliament for approval. They no longer list individual HPR breeds, but just state "HPR breeds" as a whole, so yes Munsties would be able to be docked still, if they are worked - there is no list any longer of breeds.

I will paste up the relevant parts of my correspondence with them about the docking thing now...

tashap

thats interesting, I've travelled to france through the tunnel a couple of times and on both occassion the dogs going in and out were checked. Lucky of the draw maybe?

Regarding ireland if the dog is docked in a country that still allows docking can it still be shown here? If it can then it makes a mockery of the laws that they are bringing in.

josie

From Defra (9th Feb):

"1. The draft Docking of Working Dogs' Tails Regulations have now been laid before Parliament (yesterday). They don't seem to have been published on the OPSI site yet, but no doubt they will appear very soon. You will be able to find them by clicking through from this webpage, or running a search:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si-2007-index.htm

I can tell you that the versions laid before Parliament no longer specify particular types of HPR, but instead have a general category of 'hunt point retrieve breeds'.

2. All these details are contained in the Regulations. The draft Regs will be debated by both Houses of Parliament and can be amended by them, so potentially there could yet be changes. Subject to space for debate time and approval by Parliament, the Regs are due to come into force on 6 April.

3. These regs do not apply to Ireland, so it would be perfectly legal for a breeder there to dock the dogs (subject to any requirements of Irish law - I believe it is legal there - a breeder will know). You will not need a certificate of the kind we will require for dogs that are docked in England."

I then emailed back and queried this and said it was kind of amazing, wasn't it going to encourage puppy farming in Ireland more, were they really sure that it would be possible to do this, and Defra replied:

"Yes, I am sure that you will not need to get a certificate under our Regulations to dock your dog if you are importing it from Ireland. The fact that your dog was bred and docked in Ireland will indeed be proof that you have not broken the law in this country.

You are right that, in theory, people can import docked dogs from abroad with no intention of using them as working dogs. We considered this issue during the development of the Animal Welfare Act, and looked at how docking bans had worked in other countries. Obviously, the UK Parliament cannot make laws for other countries and so cannot directly restrict docking abroad. We are also somewhat constrained by EU free trade rules in what we ban people from importing.

It was decided that the most effective way of discouraging people from importing docked dogs was to ban the showing of docked dogs at fee paying events (this provision is within the Animal Welfare Act 2006, section 6). The government's intention is to reduce the demand for docked dogs - if people cannot show a docked dog, we consider that it will be unlikely that they go to the trouble of importing one (from Ireland or elsewhere)."

I then replied and asked what would happen if the pup was born in Ireland but registered with the UK KC and not the Irish KC. They replied:

"It doesn't matter whether your dogs are registered with the UK or Irish KC - the offence of the act of docking itself would only be illegal in England and Wales.

This is not my area, so you may want to check with the PETS scheme
(http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/quarantine/index.htm), but I don't think it
makes a difference to their status as 'imports' because there seems to be
free trade without papers between the UK and Ireland.

However, just for your peace of mind and to avoid any confusion, I'd
probably advise you to get some kind of paperwork (a letter) from your
breeder or their vet in Ireland stating where the dog(s) have been docked."

BritAnnie

Josie, could you post this as a separate topic under TAILS in our Club forum - www.brittanyclub.co.uk the 'Join the Forum' Thank you, Annie

josie

Ok, done

Mike

münstermanager

Josie, thanks very much for all that.

I don't think my vet thought that he had to vaccinate annually but I think he was confused as to what the French Authorities wanted and I suspect that was because he was confused by his clients!! He may not have realized that they were not classified as 'tourists'. Actually, one doesn't have to stay in France that long to be classified as a resident as residency also depends on the frequency of trips etc etc (if one has property there, of course) not just the length of stay. At least that's how the documentation read...

I'd sort of assumed that a lack of rabies jab, if one needed it annually even to visit France, whatever the manufacturer's guidelines were, would come to light when visiting the French vet for the return journey. I always understood that a rabies vaccination had to be carried out 3 weeks prior to going to France for the French authorities to accept it (initial injection, not a booster) but, again, that applies to residency....

Tasha, that's interesting about the paperwork. I've only used the Chunnel once with a dog. No one looked at anything on the way out. After having Beecham's passport checked in the Calais hut and his microchip read, no one else looked at him or his paperwork either in France or in the UK on that return journey. I'd always expected that the microchip/passport would be checked both ways, other than in the hut. We'll see what happens next time...

Thanks for the docking update.... our next pup, fingers crossed, is due to be born just about the time the law comes into force...

Sue

josie

Sue, I think that what classifies "residency" for a person is not necessarily the same for a dog.

Yes, it sounds like those guidelines are for someone moving to France with their dog, rather than visiting France under the PP scheme.

münstermanager

Hi Josie, that's an interesting point. I would have thought that person and dog would come under the same 'residency' law. I'll look into it one day!

Thanks again for the Defra stuff - most useful.

If anyone knows of any good vets in Brittany (Finistere), please could they let me know. I wasn't overly keen on the one we used last time for various reasons.

Sue

josie

Sue, the vet you used in France last time - did they give a jab for the tapeworm or did they allow a worming tablet??

We had these 2 young vets see Slate and they insisted on giving a jab for the tapeworm. Slate moved at the wrong moment and yelped and it really hurt and bled quite a bit. It has really put her off having jabs of any sort and she now runs away and cowers. This really annoyed me as I thought it was ok for them to give a Drontal + tablet and then none of that would have happened! Is it a French vet thing, or was it just the vets we saw?

guy · jabs and paperwork

our French vet offers jabs or tablet - tablet first and if the dog manages to spit that out he will offer the jab. He now gives me the tablets to administer.

paperwork. we have never been stopped going out - just get the 'isn't that a pretty dog' line.

coming back - beware. the paperwork has to be exact for the pen pushers. once our vet's pen ran out as he signed his name, so he finished in a different colour; he also forgot to time one of the entries. Now we have nearly half a book of entries that all are timed 2.30 (when the vet is open) so it does not need a leap of understanding to infer that the missing time is going to be the same as the entered one a few pages before; who after all is going to visit the vet once for one medication and once for another. Also bear in mind that this all has to be done not earlier that 24 and not later than 48 hours before LANDING at a UK port. so even with out the time we were within the requirements. BUT NO it might be 7.30 on a sunday evening and the last boat is going out at 8.10; rules is rules so the vet was telephoned (lucky he was in) and was asked to fax DEFRA on his headed paper an attestation that the dog had been treated and at what time. We then had to await a FAX from DEFRA to say the dog with microchip number xxxxx could enter the country on this occasion.

Doesn't it warm the cockles of your hearts that so much effort is being expended in protecting us from rabies.

josie

The word "paperwork" comes to mind!!!!

Guy, can you PM me details of your French vet? Also, where in France are they based? I want to make sure that next time we go, we can give the tablet and not have the jab. Thanks!

münstermanager

Oh dear, poor Slate.

The vet I saw insisted that Beecham had the drontal injectable. I was actually carrying Milbemax, which is definitely allowed (as is drontal + tablet as far as I'm aware). I did ring Defra, I think, and check on what was and wasn't allowed. Milbemax also covers heartworm. Anyway, the vet wouldn't use it. I should have argued further but we were a bit indebted to the vet as many were closed and I didn't push it. The vet I'd seen at home the week before, not my usual, said that it was very unlikely that any French vet would give Drontal injectable, but if it did happen, to give Beecham Milbemax 24 hours later.

Unlike Slate, Beecham was OK at first, however, he came up in a giant lump (small size egg) at the injection site. My usual vet gave me a real rocket for not insisting that the French vet use Milbemax. Apparently, Drontal injectable can cause a swelling.. This French vet also insisted on the rising table - ie, put dog on table and up it goes - Beecham was absolutely petrified. He jumped off/fell off several times and the vet grabbed him and switching to English said, 'we are boss, not him'. I was livid, but it was a sort of difficult situation shall we say. My French is no longer as good as it was and I found it difficult to argue/remonstrate adequately. Beecham has to have a rising table at the eye specialist although we lift him onto it risen, so I was afraid he'd be put off, but luckily he wasn't and my vets had him visit a few times for biscuits. I did tell the eye specialist who said something along the lines, 'poof, these French vets'. She's German. Ian thinks it will be easier next time we go - we had difficulty with the days due to a Bank Holiday so we didn't have much choice in vets and had to be 'nice' - next time, Ian thinks, we can just use a vet who will do what we want... but....

I'm really sorry about your experience. It can take ages to work a dog through such an experience even with the help of an understanding vet. Good luck with it.

I will email Fiona and see what experience she had.

I suspect that the vets do not want to open the mouths of dogs they don't know and that is why they opt for an injection rather than a pill. Given the, er, French way shall we say, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for the owner to give the pill and the vet to sign the form. Even my UK vet suggested that with my last dog though we didn't passport him in the end.

münstermanager

absolutely Guy and in the meantime, anyone can sail in to a tiny port or a cove without anyone checking that a dog is on board....

I'm sure I saw somewhere that it was the time that the train/ferry departs which matters. I time from landing anyway, just in case... Thanks for the reminder!

Your French vet, other than his faulty pen and lack of timings, sounds great with the tablets/injections. Just what we want. He's not Finistere way, by any chance, is he? Like Josie, please could you PM me details. Thanks a lot.
Sue

josie

Wow, that sounds almost as bad as our experience!!! Stupid vet!!!! Yes it was the Droncit injectable which Slate had too. She didn't swell up but she bled a lot. And what was worse was, when she pulled away and yelped they hadn't even injected it all, so we then had to get her back and get the rest of it in.

We weren't prepared enough to bring our own tablet. The 2 French vets had come to our hotel to give Slate the treatment - we had used the first surgery which saw the first PP dog into Calais, as we thought they would be well used to doing this. They claimed not to be any more expensive for having to come to your hotel than it was to do it at the surgery. However, when we asked the 2 young vets who came to our hotel, they said it WAS more expensive!!!!

Slate hates any stranger who approaches her holding a strange object now. Even when she has to be scanned by the microchip scanner, she hates that and shies away. She won't even be distracted by treats. She will eat her Drontal + tablet disguised in a hotdog sausage no problem!

BritAnnie

Looks to me that if you dock you will limit your sales to work or pet and if you don't you will limit your sales to pet as folk won't want a non-docked docked breed if you get my jist. In time that will wear off, of course, but in the meantime everyone will possibly try to get round it.

münstermanager

Very difficult if one is a breeder who really likes/needs/want to show. A dreadful mess, as usual...

Josie, it really sounds a dreadful experience. Wooster was petrified of the microchip scanner - very bad experience being chipped due to me being an idiot - should just have had it done at the normal vet. I don't think he would have coped being scanned by a strange vet. Is Slate OK with your usual vet? If so, would it be worth finding a vet near Calais, who you could visit on the way in just to say 'hello' and then see on the way back out for treatment & hot dog (taking your own!) - if you explained the situation on the telephone/by email first? Or would that vet still be classed as a stranger by Slate? Poor dog, what an awful experience.

I've got rellies about an hour west of Calais (Esteville). I haven't seen them for years, sadly, but they have invited the dog/s this time! Poor Wooster wasn't allowed across the threshold when they lived here and he was certainly not the yobbo Beecham is. Essentially, I'm saying that they are not really dog orientated, but I think they have a cat now, so they may know of some good vets. I will ask them next time I write.... Also, we went to France in a real hurry with Beecham and I used a firm to find a vet initially; it may be that one of these arranging firms can find someone who would be prepared to help. I'll try to remember who they were.

It's very naughty to claim that it is not more expensive and then to be more expensive. I've seen a few of those adverts for hotel visits.

Actually, it is a point that it is useful to have a vet who has used the PETS system before particularly as everything has to be stamped and timed and some think it all a bit silly....

guy

my vet is about 8 hours drive from Calais - do you still want the address.

I have a better idea - we could all meet up down there in the summer, do some water retrieve practice then visit a few vineyards.

munstyman

You lot have been busy Exclamation

don't any of you work full time Question

I did think about using the `chimney' as part of my last post, but did not want to give the Inland Revenue any clue to my `part time work' over Christmas Wink

After all the desguise is a good one and served me well over the years Cool

I hope I'm not building up a level of expectation around `my plan' to get around the AWB, as like everyone else I will abide by it ( Wink

)....its just I have seen so many `laws' past recently that are quite simply `not fit for purpose' , and quite simply are easily got around in practice, If you read this thread you will find some obvious glaring holes in the legislation. The bit I like most is the thinking behind `closing' the cross border trading of docked dogs......they legislate against showing Exclamation

I must admit the `showing ban' had me completely bewildered when it was first disclosed. I am pretty sure that some legal eagle could now make a case for this element which is now by definition being of no `Welfare' significance being a major legal flaw in the Bill and in effect is both discrimmatory and effects individual choice.
Just to distract you even further from `my plan', many of you have overlooked the more interesting question of how your Breed Clubs are going to rewrite your dogs standards to accomodate `long' tails Shocked

I can not wait to see how tail carriage is reflected in certain lines and breeds and how Judges are going to inturpret this. And then there is the question of how the breed club members vote in club AGM's or SGM's in order to put any changes into their Club rules, and then there is what the KC will do regarding any changes Exclamation

p.s. I'm grounded at the moment as my Red pants and Cape are in the washing machine Exclamation

münstermanager

Sounds good Guy - the water retrieve and the vineyards that is!!

8 hours drive south or east are not so good. 8 hours west is a possibility.... We're only venturing to Brittany with dog/s at the moment (no vineyards to contest dog space)...

Actually, I'm very interested in the Tarn region (haven't been there properly even without a dog) - does anyone know of any dogs who have been there? If so, were there any problems with 'diseases' or insects or anything when the dog/s came home? Thanks

josie

Guy, Yes please I'd still like the vet's details, thanks.

BritAnnie

Mike

BritAnnie

Yes, you are right - here is ours - exactly the same as docked Laughing

Tail
Naturally tailless, short or customarily docked.
Docked: Set high, carried horizontally or slightly lower.

Undocked: Set high, carried horizontally or slightly lower.

Helen

They have changed the standards to include for the tail. Never knew it had anything to do with eu legislation but then again, what doesn't have anything to do with it :-s

Look what happened to that vet in London who docked the whole litter of the weims. I can see that happening more and more and vets not wanting to go against the RVC. I do think it's going to be harder for hpr's than spaniels.

Helen

munstyman

Ah yes, they have included tails but my point was they still include the `Docked' option. Will this be allowed given the legislation or not?
And, how much will an incorrect tail carriage effect the placing of a dog, when many will not be familiar with seeing long tails in these breeds Shocked

Peter

guy

Annie - not many vineyards in Brittany - Calvados is good though.

Will be over there in August for the TAN and REP not sure of the show yet - not sure if my boy is 'good enough' to parade amongst the French. just cannot get the 'body onto him - but will see and i will keep an open mind.

We will then go on to Allier (just north of the Auvergne ) for holidays, have space for a few guests, plenty room for dogs. i should do something for Brittany Mag about Tailliside on tour - Fiona and Simon came down for Christmas.

Josie - will dig out vets details and post here.

Mike

guy

vet details

TOUZAT Jean
Chenillat
03500 Cesset
France

00 33 (0)4 70 45 67 71

map here
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps type in chenillat

josie

Great, thanks Guy.

guy

So
I can import a dog from a country that does not have a ban, but i cannot show it at Crufts, country fairs, or dog shows where the public pay to be admitted.

The dog does not need a certificate to prove it was docked illegally, its import certificate is sufficient. In a Brittany it is - according to the 'authorities' i have read not possible, with certainty, to tell the difference between natural docked and ring docked .

How would I prove that the dog was a natural dock and therefore eligible for public display?

Could I show it at a Breed Club show - particularly if non members were not charged for the pleasure of entry. ??

josie

Guy, as far as I understand it, you could still show it at any show where the public isn't charged for entry. At the moment this includes pretty much all open shows and a few champ shows. (Isn't it going to be funny if, at a few champ shows of the year, everyone comes out with their docked dogs which can't be shown at the other champ shows?!!)

As for how you would prove it was a natural untailed dog, if it was imported, I'm not sure. I'd think an X ray would show it, but why should you have to go to those lengths?

guy

Josie
I believe an xray does not always determine the difference - hence teh problem.

I will ask the question on the French forum and cross post on the Brittany one to see if there is a definitive answer.

If it is as you say about shows then there is still a chance to keep the dual nature of the dogs alive!

weima

guy

don't social clubs often have a 'temporary membership' to get past licencing laws?

weima

It is not whether someone is a member of a club or not, that doesn't matter but if you are going to a show as a member of the general public, ie not exhibiting or not having a dog.

guy

exactly - a member of the public becomes a temporary member of the club running the show; now no longer 'joe public' but also no longer protected from seeing docked tailed dogs and all the harm that may do to you.

weima

I'm not sure I see what you are getting at here. If joe public wants to become a member of the breed club then so be it. Any club will be happy to have new members.

If joe public is offended by seeing dogs with docked tails then surely they wouldn't go to to a breed show to look at that breed?

i think perhaps you are reading too much into it Wink

guy

no what i was getting at was temporary membership replaces lost gate money for a club.

protecting people from docked dogs - sorry i was being sarcastic.

josie

Guy is saying that it's a way around things - calling spectators not spectators but temporary members. Thereby meaning that the show is not open to members of the public and docked dogs can be shown.

weima

But as I understand it, it is only PAYING spectators. The breed club representatives I have spoken to & certainly on my committee, we have already discussed doing away with the entrance fee.

josie

I see, but big shows like Crufts probably won't want to abandon their spectator entrance fee. If they called it something else instead, like "temporary membership" or "one day membership", who knows but they could still charge people and yet docked breeds would be allowed to enter.

weima

Well one suggestion was made [not sure if it was on here] but the way to get around the 'problem' at Crufts is that all docked breeds are in 1 or 2 halls that the public cannot go in.

I doubt that the KC will go for this though as that would be too simple for them Wink

josie

Yes, I wonder whether the KC will try to be all "proper" and law abiding (in which case things don't look good) or whether they will try to get around this.

And, if they get around it, I wonder if the powers that be will then change the law and get rid of the exemption for working breeds in favour of a total ban, because they would argue it's not working.

Maybe I am being too pessimistic!

münstermanager

Thanks for the vet address, Guy.

Josie, Fiona said that her dog had an injection rather than a Drontal tablet too. However, their rellies come back to the UK from France regularly and the same vet gives their dogs Drontal tablets for PETS rather than an injection. So perhaps it is to do with the vet knowing the dog. They weren't sure if the vet would use a tablet brought by the client (eg client brings Milbemax from the UK).

It sounds as if Guy's vet is a good bet.

If a working dog without a docked tail badly damages his tail, can the owner be prosecuted, under the new laws, for not taking proper care of his/her dog/s?

Sue

Mike

josie

The drafts for the new regulations are now up on the govt website here:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/dsis2007.htm

I haven't checked them out yet but am about to do that right now....

Of course these still have to be approved by Parliament and are subject to further changes being made.

josie

Well now, I'm confused.

So - all of that "evidence" has to be provided not just once by the owner of the dam, on behalf of the litter, but multiplied by the number of pups in the litter - from each of the potential new owners, on behalf of the individual pup they will have from the litter?

Is that right? How on earth are breeders going to have homed all their pups by under 5 days old, and obtained all that documentation from each of the new owners??!

Mike

That isn't how I interpret it Jo, as the breeder of the litter you own all the pups. Where they are going is irrelevant at the docking stage.

Wonder what the difference between a Slovakian Rough Haired pointer and a Slovakian Wire haired pointer is?

josie

Where does it talk about SRP and SWP??

I read it in that way because it kept talking about "the dog" - not "the dogS" or "the litter" or "the puppies".

I'll email my helpful woman at Defra and ask her!!!

Mike

I will be interested to hear her response but this is my reasoning (hopefully if I am talking out of my hat someone will point it out Wink

)

Regulation 3 specifies the requirements for having a dog docked, obviously each dog will require it's own certificate, that certificate (as shown in Schedule 2) also has provision for meeting the requirements of Regulation 4 (which specifies the ID requirements for a docked dog) the microchipping of the dog is required before 3 months old (taken from the AWA Chapter 45 Section 6 Paragraph 8 part b) so the microchipping can be handled by the new owners who will need to go to their vet and have section 2 filled out.

It does not appear from the regulations that there is any requirement for the vet to verify the dog is going to be worked at the micro chipping stage.

Having said that in the explanatory memorandum there are a couple of paragraphs of note:

josie

Well I think that SRP bit just goes to show the people who drew it up have no idea about HPR breeds (or probably dogs in general!!!). My guess is that everyone who responded to the consultation and specified other breeds besides those already included just had whatever they wrote stuck on that list.

My vet wouldn't chip Slate at 7 wks and told us to wait until she was 12 wks because it's such a big needle! So to chip them at a few days old seems a bit crazy!

DesO'Neile

Overheard at a Field Trial in Ireland, Saturday 17th February 2007,
" It is generally accepted that Ireland will have a prohibition on tail docking by the end of 2008, if not sooner."

münstermanager

If it is banned in Ireland, it will close the loop hole mentioned previously, depending what expemptions there are, if any.

Part/para 3 of that Draft says that the puppy's owner (I take that to be the breeder as this is signed before the pup is docked) will work the dog in one of the activities outlined in para 5 OR will sell the puppy for work as outlined in para 5. The breeder signs that bit. At least that is how it reads, it may not be how it is meant. If the pup is not microchipped at the same time, the new owner signs part 4 when the pup is microchipped. Part 4 indicates that it is the same dog as mentioned in part 3 - ie one that has been sold for the activities in para 5.

I did read it all very quickly and will need to have another look. However, to me, that means that docked dogs can only legally be sold to working homes for use in the activities listed in para 5. That suggests that it would not be legal to sell a docked puppy to a pet home if it were the last one left. This may not be what it means and, as I say, I would have to read it again, but I'm not a lawyer. It may be open to interpretation whatever it actually means!

I will be interested to know what Defra say, Josie.

Puppies need to have enough loose skin in order to be microchipped. I'm sure someone said that some vets didn't like to microchip too young as it can move/and or they don't have enough loose skin. Beecham was done at 12-13 weeks, I think, but I do remember being told it would depend upon the amount of skin he had when he went in...
Sue

Mike

josie

Well I haven't heard back yet, but this is the relevant part of the email I sent them (it is kind of a hard question to ask, it kept sounding very confusing so I hope it makes sense!):

"When the Draft Regulation is stating that "the dog" must be certified a working dog, and the "owner" must obtain and show proof of this, I am not sure whether "owner" refers to the current owner of the dog (ie the breeder, who owns the entire litter) or the prospective future owner of the dog?

By this I mean: Say a breeder has bred a litter of working pups and wants to have them docked. Does this mean that 1. the breeder has to have found homes for them all by 5 days old, so that they can obtain proof from each individual future owner of each individual pup that it will be worked in its new home, in time for it still to be docked?

OR 2. does it mean that the breeder him/herself just has to get written "proof" that they work their own dog(s) on a shoot and that therefore it will be assumed that the puppies they breed are likely to go to a working home?

I was a bit confused by this because the Draft Regulation states "the dam of the dog", so by "the dog" in that sentence it is obviously referring to the individual puppy within the litter. When it then goes on to state that the "owner of the dog" must provide this evidence, does this mean the breeder/current owner or does it mean the future owner?

DesO'Neile

Guy,
Unfortunately I know from bitter experience as the import of my Pointer from Denmark is likely to be delayed due to improperly completed paperwork but at the risk of being pedantic I believe the six months is from the date of the Blood Test, and not the date the blood sample is taken. This was incorrectly annotated in my dog's Pet Passport and it is now unlikely that a new one ( No alterations allowed ) will be completed in time for 1st March.

guy

Des
No I am right - unusual i know Smile

'A dog or cat may not enter or re-enter the UK until 6 calendar months have passed from the date that the blood sample which gave a satisfactory test result was taken.'

taken from the DEFRA page here. http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/q...procedures/support-info/btest.htm

The last time I had a rabies vacc done the vet managed to miss out one of the many zeros in the micro chip number; OK they were going to stand the cost of the retest but time was not on our side. Fortunately the lab saw the error for what it was and everything was sorted out nicely.

münstermanager

HAH, read it too fast, saw the bits below the first sentence and panicked. Phew. Thanks Mike. Sorry about that.

That makes sense to me Josie.

Sue

tashap

good breeders who have a waiting list won't have any problems with providing the information that is required for each puppy to prove that it is going to be a working puppy but it will depend on what information is going to be required. It might be very difficult for people first starting out who are interested in working their dog or shooting over it.

Prehaps it will be a good thing in some respects and reduce the number of litters being born, thats something that wouldn't do the majority of dog breeds any harm.

josie

How many HPR breeders can place their entire litters in working homes by 5 days old???

I don't see how it will reduce the number of litters being born either. And if it does, it will be the people who care most about the breed who are not breeding - because they don't want to breed puppies who later experience tail damage, or puppies which cannot be dual purpose because they can't be shown and worked. Whereas people who are just breeding for the money are going to be happy about this - now they don't have to pay for docking any more.

tails or lack of them

tails etc

jabs and paperwork