josie
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the role of showingWhat do you think the role of showing is (or should be) for people with a dual purpose HPR? 
Do you think that HPR breeders have a duty to show as well as work, in order to preserve the dual-purpose nature of the breeds?
How do you think the upcoming ban on showing docked dogs is going to affect this dual purpose role? I mean - if people who work their dogs continue to dock, they will no longer be able to show at some shows (probably) - over time do you think this will lead to a split into showing/working, as with labs and most spaniel breeds?
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Marty_j
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Re: the role of showing | josie wrote: |
How do you think the upcoming ban on showing docked dogs is going to affect this dual purpose role? I mean - if people who work their dogs continue to dock, they will no longer be able to show at some shows (probably) - over time do you think this will lead to a split into showing/working, as with labs and most spaniel breeds? |
The new law would undoubtably lead to a split between workers and show dogs.
Its going to lead to some hard choices for breeders, if they dock a pup at 5 days they're ending the show career of a potential Crufts winner or do they leave it and try working a dog with an undocked tail. At that age it will be impossible to say which career a pup will be best suited for.
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josie
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I'm curious to know exactly how the exemption will work.
I'm hoping, I suppose, that it will be reasonably easy to continue to dock a working breed - I've heard suggestions that vets will accept BASC membership as proof that the dog will be worked - well, you don't have to shoot to join BASC and I don't think they ask for any proof of anything. 
The only other thing then is - the showing restrictions. If it goes through as it stands - so you can't enter shows where there is an entry fee - then you can still enter all open shows, the breed club champ shows, and a small number of other champ shows - since these already don't have entry fees for spectators. I think more show socieities will abolish the entry fee as well. So who knows, it might not be The End afterall??
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Helen
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I don't think it's anyones "duty" to do both if they don't want to. Not showing a dog, doesn't make it any less of a dog and not working a dog doesn't either.
I am just starting to show my young gwp. It's a bit of fun at the moment but the minute it starts getting tedious, for either of us, I will stop. My main aim with Teal is to have a working dog. Everything else comes second.
I will know better in a couple of years as to what I will do re: docking.
Helen
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Landlord
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My personal opinion of this is that there is definitely a role for showing in the world of the dual purpose breed (for those that want to show of course or do both show and work) Shows are there to benchmark dogs against the breed standard (assuming you have a fair judge who is judging to the standard!) The breed standard was set up as a guideline for people to breed to in order to get the best conformation for the dog to do the job it was bred for. If you didn't have a benchmark, then how do you assess the way the breed is going (conformation wise) Granted, everyone does not need to show in order to breed a dog and anyone could say they were breeding to the standard but if no dogs were assessed independantly i.e by a judge how do we know what state the breed is in.
I think it will be a very sad day for the dual purpose HPR if the Animal welfare bill goes through as it stands. I do believe it will cause a split between working and showing and certainly for the Weim breed clubs we do not wish to see this happen.
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josie
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What do you think we should be doing, given how things are and where we are now?
I have to say that now this has gone to the Lords, I'm a bit confused about what it's best to do, for HPRs.
On the one hand I feel I should be writing letters to every lord I can, but I'm not sure I know what I should be arguing for or against.
I mean - if I argue against the exemption, I'm afraid that the exemption will be kicked out and we'll have a total ban. I guess I'm afraid of trying to "get" even more in case it means we end up with less. Or (controversial idea coming up) would a total ban actually be better than the exemption, for HPRs, because at least it is less likely to result in a split of showing and working?
What are other HPR people doing or arguing in their letters to Lords?
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Alkemist
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Surely you argue that the working dog has a breed standard to which is it judged against, and that the breed standard is not there for beauty - it captures generation after generation of learning what works for the breed re its purpose. IE the size limits are there for a reason - too big and the dog will overtire easily and probably damage it's bones, too small and it cannot carry the things it is required too, or pick up scent from the air etcetcetc???? Have I explained it OK?
Nina
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Helen
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| Quote: | | Surely you argue that the working dog has a breed standard to which is it judged against, and that the breed standard is not there for beaut |
Yes but that can't really compare to the other gundog breeds that have a working/show split. I have a working setter which looks nothing like the setters in the show ring. I've known people take out their show setters onto grouse to see what they do and they just don't work like a working setter. In theory, it should be the case but unfortunately, it only means that in a small number of breeds.
Helen
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Marty_j
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| Alkemist wrote: | Surely you argue that the working dog has a breed standard to which is it judged against, and that the breed standard is not there for beauty - it captures generation after generation of learning what works for the breed re its purpose. IE the size limits are there for a reason - too big and the dog will overtire easily and probably damage it's bones, too small and it cannot carry the things it is required too, or pick up scent from the air etcetcetc???? Have I explained it OK?
Nina |
It all depends on how much the breed standard has been re-written since it was first laid down.
If the show fraternity breed to over emphasise certain looks or qualities then what you end up with may not be able to carry out its original role but is more than capable of winning dog shows.
Take the Bulldog as an example, you have a breed that can hardly walk or even breathe properly but it conforms to its breed standard.
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countrygirl
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A look at the council of docked breeds site will give you ideals of what to write to the lords if you wish to but I think time is running out as the debate is next week. I wrote to 21 lords and had 2 replies one non comittle and one supporting docking as the gentleman in question has breed boxers. I wrote from the point of view that I would have to choose between working or showing my dogs as I do both, I dont know what is going to happen, there are going to be so many shows effected and the kennel club has stated that they are going to police the law. I am proud of the fact that my dogs are duel purpose(although some people would disput this as I dont trail) and want to continue doing both but if push comes to shove I will be no longer showing, lets just hope that there are going to be vets still willing to dock and having to put there namesto the fact they have done it. I have heard mentioned that a possible proof that you work your dogs could be producing your shotgun certificate at time of docking, thats fine if you yourself shoot but I know there are many people like myself who work there dogs but dont actually shoot themself.
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Gunfield
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I own both docked and undocked vizslas all of which work to some degree and are shown to to some degree We have encountered tail injuries repeatly with one of my undocked vizslas not just in the field but in the home as well and one of my boys took the tip off his tail on the bench at crufts this year and proceeded to splatter the bench with blood!
I would hate to be in the position of having to choose to either just work or just show my dogs.
I would also say it is impossible to predict which dogs will be show quality at 2 days old!
I feel it is important for all hpr`s to show and to work after all a working dog requires good conformation to remain sound and the show dog shouldn`t lose the natural hunting abilitys so it benifits both.
I do think if they bring in the ruling on docked tails we will see a split between work and show and may lose the benifits of bringing the two activities together.
In Hungary they require breeding dogs to be basicly conformation,temperament and apptitue tested before breeding.
Although these test dont prove a dog is show quality or the next FTCH it does show the conformation is basicly sound and the dog has the basic hunting instincts required for its breed.
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Allyson
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I really see no reason why any breed of dog should be split into working or showing lines if we adopted the continental practice of actually breeding for function then it stands to reason that the dogs should be actually physically capable of performing the task for which they were originally designed.
You do not see a split in the working/pastoral breeds on the continent as they have to meet stringent criteria both in conformation and working ability.
I was at a Rottweiler event over Easter and the dog have to pass a very detailed physical exam with practically everything being measured including head, stop etc.
Teeth are counted and any missing results in complete disqualification from further consideration.
The dogs have to pass a "breed suitability test" which involved extensive temperament testing not to mention being able to pass the bare minimum of a BH or an AD.
If only breeding/showing and judging were as careful over here, instead of allowing anyone to breed from anything.
Very sad.
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Rhimad
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I agree we should take a leaf out of our continental friends book, the trouble over here is that in certain breeds the breeders have changed the type/construction to suit what they prefer the look of, not what the breed was orginal designed to do.
Look at the show Labradors, there arent many that could do a days work, they are far to fat and far to short in the leg.
We had a springer spaniel who had trialled with the Scottish Team and was a field trial champion, put her next to a springer you see in the show ring and you wouldnt beleive they were the same breed. It is very sad, but unfortunately thats the way it is in a lot of breeds over here.
I think the docking argument will just make the people who are trying to be dual purpose choose between one or the other. If I had to choose it would be working, I could live without showing, but i would suffocate if I couldnt get out there and work my dogs.
At least down South if you are working dogs you are allowed to Dock up here in Scotland we are not getting that option.
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Vital K9
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With regard to not being able to show a docked dog: what shows would that ban affect? Presumably single breed shows hosted by that breed's own club could decide to accept docked examples of their breed? Perhaps it would lead to a lot more single breed shows taking place, so that the docked dogs can get into the ring more. Hey, maybe an "underworld" of shows without full tails (along the lines of games without frontiers!) will emerge 
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Helen
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As I understand it, it will be the champ shows that we won't be able to enter with a docked dog as the public have to pay to enter. Open shows, you don't pay. Although, you can show a docked dog that has been docked prior to the ban.
Helen
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Gunfield
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CRUFTS will be one show people cant show docked dogs in! i wonder what will happen to the HPrs / spaniels which show in the game keepers ring
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Landlord
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I think BASC are thinking about making it more about ability though I'm not sure how they can do this - they don't seem to be too bothered about the idea of not being able to show docked dogs
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josie
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Helen - I believe you can also show a docked dog at breed club Champ shows - because again there isn't an entry fee. Also, I might have it wrong, but I think there are a couple of other champ shows which don't have an entry fee at the moment.
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Rhimad
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What will happen about the dogs coming from abroad to Crufts that are docked?
Trace
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Marjolein
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In Holland we don't dock either. You can show docked dogs, but only if the dog was docked in a country where docking was still legislated. I assume that goes for England as well.
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Allyson
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I suppose it depends on which logic they use.
For example you cannot show dogs in the UK that have cropped ears.
Breeders who import stud dogs with cropped ears (which may be allowed in some countries) are still not allowed to show dogs with cropped ears in the UK.
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countrygirl
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Well I certanily hope that docked dogs from abroad are NOT going to be allowed to be shown if we are no longer able to dock and show and thats the rules they shouldent be able to enter either, as with ear cropping, banned in this country so not allowed to show, hopefully the majority of champ shows will drop enrty fees for the public so we can still show, open shows such as the ones run in conjunction with agricultral shows will also be a no no.
No offence ment to our overseas members.
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BritAnnie
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showing and dockingAll that will happen is that shows will not have an entry fee. The Kennel Club and SKC have said they will not police this ban.
Regarding natural tails in some breeds - to my knowledge not one vet or policeman has been trained or tested on whether they can tell a docked or a natural tail in my breed so they cannot prosecute as they cannot prove a tail has been docked. I have a letter from Defra saying that the onus is on the authorities to prove a crime has been committed. I'm not going to let on either.
I have written to 30 Lords and have not had one reply - and that was two weeks ago!
Anne
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countrygirl
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I emailled 21 peers and had 2 replays one positive and one non committle, my friend has had 4 replays they do take there time though
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MC
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Why is it you may not be able to show a docked breed?
Surely this is a matter between the UK Kennel club and dog owners and NOTHING to do with Govt regulation.
Why is your Govt trying to regulate what type of dog you can show? What an earth has a dog show got to do with a Government?
Are they going to regulate what type of people can play soccer?
This is astounding 
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Allyson
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It is not the type of dog that can be shown that is in question, it is the practice of docking tails that government want to regulate
No different from them intervening to stop the docking of horses tails, ear cropping and several other "welfare" issues such as dog fighting, cock fighting, badger baiting etc etc.
There are those that wish to dock dogs tails and there are others, such as myself, who believe it should cease.
Everyone has a point of view, most are valid, as we live in a democracy the choices that our government makes are ultimately those that reflect the majority as we, after all, elected them, one way or another.
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josie
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I'm not so sure that this anti-docking result reflects the opinions of the majority of UK people - there have been 2 surveys carried out which have found the opposite, and that most UK people are in favour of docking.
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Marjolein
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Hey, but since most of the countries on the mainland are anti-docking, you cannot really stay behind I think. Might be one of the reasons for it?!?!?!
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Allyson
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"there have been 2 surveys carried out which have found the opposite, and that most UK people are in favour of docking."
Who exactly did they ask, what percentage were dog owners, what not, what percentage were owners of traditionally docked breeders, what not, how many people were actually asked etc etc etc
The results of surveys depend on the above and, above all, the sort of questions actually asked and how they were asked.
I have studied this at great length years ago when I was in the marketing game and you can skew results with a comma here, and ? mark there...........
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josie
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This is one of them, will have a look for the other:
Public vote overwhelmingly supports tail docking
The Countryside Alliance has published an independent poll which clearly shows that the majority of the general public do not want a ban on tail docking.
The vote is split fairly evenly with close on one third wanting the status quo to remain, another third supporting the option for just working dogs and only 36% want a complete ban.
Two thirds of the public supporting the continuation of tail docking is a remarkable result in its favour.
With over 1 million docked dogs in the UK, tail docking is not a matter affecting just a few of them.
The poll, carried out by ORB* for the Countryside Alliance, shows that just 39% of people think that the docking of working dogs should be banned. The survey asked:
Typically a vet may dock (shorten) a dog’s tail when the dog is young for two reasons – one is for cosmetic reasons (i.e. to enter the dog into a competition), the other is for working dogs (such as police dogs and working spaniels) to prevent serious tail injuries to them. Which of the following would you prefer?
Banning this procedure for all types of dogs 36%
Banning this procedure for working dogs 3%
Total – banning for working dogs 39%
Banning this procedure for cosmetic reasons 34%
None of these – this procedure should be allowed to continue 27%
*ORB interviewed a nationally representative sample of 1,003 adults aged 18+ throughout England , Scotland and Wales between 10 th – 12 th February 2006. ORB is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its Code of Conduct.
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