| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| chiendog |
The Season So FarHi All,I have been out with my dogs and those of a few friends since mid september hunting grouse, snipe, duck, goose etc. etc. I've just popped back into town today to pick up some more supplies. We are back in the field tomorrow and with luck will be there till near Xmas. I've posted some photos of the season so far at http://craigkoshykphoto.ca/hunting07.html/ Enjoy!! |
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| Helen S |
Great pics  and lovely dogs
What is Hobey? Is he a Cesky Fousek? Helen S |
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| windem bang |
Good pics, good scenery, good dogs - good shooting!
Bill T. |
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| BenB |
Very jealous as I am sitting here in a hot stuffy office pretending to ignore the nice frosty morning outside. Stunning photographs. | ||
| chiendog |
Hobey is a Pudelpointer. Other breeds featured in the photos are Weimaraners (shorthaired and longhaired) Pont Audemer Spaniel, Braque de l'Ariege (Brava and Basque) and GSP. |
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| munstyman |
Stunning pics, looks like great dogs, good company and great shooting  I'm green with envy 
peter |
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| chiendog |
Hi again Everyone,
I have updated my site with some new photos and re-arranged the galleries so they are easier to view in a month-by-month order. www.craigkoshykphoto.ca It looks like the snow is here to stay now, but the day before it all fell, we had a fantastic grouse hunt. In just under two hours Souris pointed 11 ruffed grouse! I was out with friends that had never hunted over weims before, they were dyed in the wool setter folks. Note how I said "were". After what they saw in the field with my little grey rocket, they are now converts
Anywho, I will be adding some more photos soon and a link to a video that CBC Television made of me and the dogs hunting in the woods. I think there is footage of Christophe and Vini in there as well. The program is called ZigZag and it airs in Canada this Sunday at 5:30 p.m (French CBC or "Radio Canada") and Monday at 6:30 p.m. http://www.radio-canada.ca/regions/zigzag/index.asp After it airs they post it to their website to be viewed on the net. I will post the link as soon as I can. I have yet to see the program but there should be some good scenes of Souris my SH Weim hunting with Quell, my buddy's LH Weim. Stay tuned!! |
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| BenB |
Beautifully designed website. Stunning photos. Wow. | ||
| briarlow |
Fantastic photo's! Love the Bracco looks a bit more like the type that first came into this country although the ones that I've seen recently seem a bit finer structured. Beautiful photo's! | ||
| windem bang |
I very much enjoyed the pics and liked the look of so many of the dogs. Us H.P.R. fanciers are actually spoilt for choice! These were the first decent photos I've seen of the French Spaniel (Epagneulle Francais? hope I've spelled it correctly!) Yet another breed that I would love to train!
Can you give me any idea of how this breed works as compared to others? - A close hunter or a wide ranger? Easy to train or not? Not an easy thing to say I know, but in general what are they like? Bill T. |
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| chiendog |
I have seen French Spaniels in France and in Quebec. Most were very nice dogs, although, as with any breed, I am sure there are some slugs out there. The ones I saw in France were running in pretty high level trials and doing quite well. The ones I saw in Quebec were from two of the more well known and successful breeders there.
My impressions: 1. Some of the females are are really, and I mean really, pretty. Males can be quite handsome too but my wife and I actually commented to each other on how pretty the bitches were. We rarely say much about dogs' looks since we mainly concentrate on the way they hunt etc. However in this case, we both just sort of said "wow" when we first saw them. 2. They have lots of hunt and point in them. They are rather setter-ish in their movements, very feline. Most are close to medium workers. The Quebec breeders like closer working dogs for grouse and woodcock hunting in the thick stuff out there. There are some lines that run bigger in France though. One dog I saw there win a trial ran very fast at a pretty good range (100+ meters to each side). 3. The clubs in Quebec and in France seem to be pretty good. They are not dominated by show people as much as some other breed clubs are. There are still quite a few hunters/trialers in the breed. If I were in the market for one (and it is a breed that could tempt me one day) I would look at French field trial lines... I like a fast, bigger running dog. However for those that prefer closer, more methodical dogs there are good ones about as well. 4. Did I mention how pretty some of the bitches are? |
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| windem bang |
I gather you'll be getting a bitch then? 
Thanks for the info, it is good to get an opinion of a breed that has not been corrupted by "breed blurb!" I've read and heard more than enough of that! Bill T. |
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| münstermanager |
I've fancied a French Spaniel for a while, too. We'd have to import from France. It won't be for a few years yet, at the earliest, and probably not until we've moved northwards & learned a bit more. But, hopefully, one day...
Really great photos... What makes you want to train one, WB, if I might ask? Sue |
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| chiendog |
If you fancy the French Spaniel, I would say that with a bit of homework, you can find a dandy. They are good looking (I might have mentioned that already) rather soft, easy to train, hard hunting and, oh, really pretty as well.
Another breed with a similar look/disposition is the Drent Partridge Dog. There are photos on my site of one as well. Nice dogs, unfortunately sliding down the slippery slope of show-doom. Good ones can still be found though. For a slightly more robust version of the French Spaniel, with good water work and a bit more character, check out the Picardy Spaniel. My favorite of the French Epagneuls. |
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| münstermanager |
Thanks, Chiendog. Stunning photos - really stunning - I finished looking at them after my last post.
I did start looking at the Picardy Blue and then got hooked by the French Spaniel. Does the Picardy work differently to the Picardy Blue or is it just a colour difference? The ones I've seen (pictures) seem slighter in build to the Picardy Blue. I remember seeing some of the latter on your website and thought they were heavier LM/GMs at first. Certainly the French Spaniel bitch in your last set of photos is seriously pretty. When will you be getting one?! I saw some Drent Partridge Dog working back in September at the HPR w/e. It was very interesting. Some of those were heavier in build than the one/s on your site. All very interesting. Many thanks Sue PS when is your book coming out? |
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| chiendog |
I've just finished writing the chapter on the Picardy and the Blue for my book (due out in August 08 if all goes well!), so I won't post the long version of the answer but suffice it to say that there are differences between the two breeds beyond just coat colour. The blue is very slightly finer boned, racier, maybe a bit faster and more setter-ized. Both have English blood in the closet thoughs, so both work with a good amount of dash and speed. The Picardy, in my view, is a more rubust dog, has a stronger character and can take a firmer hand when training (but by no means is it in the same league as some german breeds in this regard). It probably has the advantage in water work as well. The blue is a more recent breed than the Picardy (it is actually just a variant of the Picardy which is just a variant of the French Spaniel). Up until about 10 years ago, there were always more Picardies whelped in France that Blues. That situation has now been reversed. There are approx 200 blues whelped each year versus about 100 Picardies. Unfortunately, I believe that much of the increased popularity of the blue is in show circles. Despite the greater number of Blue births, fewer blues participate in trials and tests and I suppose that fewer hunt. Personally, I really like the Picardy. If I ever do get another French Spaniel breed (we already have a Pont Audemer) it may well be a Picardy. |
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| münstermanager |
Many thanks. That's very interesting. We'll take a look at the Picardy as well as the French Spaniel itself then - we have plenty of time. Hmmn - I'd heard the Blue mentioned in purely show circles over here too. I'll look forward to the book. Good luck with it.
Best wishes & many thanks Sue |
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| chiendog |
Let me know if/when you decide on a breed. I may have some contacts for you. |
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| windem bang |
Hi Sue, as you probably know I like dogs that work, the show side is very secondary for me. This breed looks athletic, reminding me of a small setter. I tend, for my own purposes, to have hard running dogs, this breed looks like it can do what it says on the tin yet not be huge in size.
I am not really a breed person, if the dog loves working and is reasonably easy to train I'll probably like it! Chiendog says some of the French bred dogs are "goers" that is the type I'd like. To be really good gundogs a little bit extra is needed- the willingness to please. This was why I asked about their " trainability." I'm still uncertain about their retrieving abilities, I don't know whether this breed likes retrieving or is one that needs a lot of coaxing and "geeing up" to get them retrieving. If they need to be taught F.F. then I am definitely not wanting one. Finally, I too think they are a very attractive breed even although, like Chiendog, I usually think of a dogs work before I think of its' beauty. A hard worker. A nice size. A good looking dog. Why wouldn't I be interested? Bill T. |
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| münstermanager |
Many thanks, Chiendog. It won't be for a few years yet, as I say. Very many thanks.
Thanks, Bill. Great reasoning as always. What about some of the other breeds we don't have over here, do any of those appeal for similar reasons? Just out of interest... Sue |
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| BritAnnie |
Well, he LOVES Brittanys  (Epagneul Breton) and there aren't many of them in the UK yet 
BA |
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| chiendog |
Re: Trainability. Generally speaking, the French are much less into training than say the Germans. In fact, an important goal for many breeders in France is to produce dogs that are "born trained". They want dogs with tons of natural ability, especially to run and point, and don't really want to spend too much time trying to teach them. That is not to say they do not train their dogs. They do. But, and again this is quite different than in Germany, many French hunting dog owners send their dogs to professional trainers to be trained. There are a lot of pros in France...they even have their own union! The level of training expected and achieved ranges from excellent in terms of quatering, steadyness, etc, to just so-so for retrieving and water work. I have a French bred dog (Pont Audemer Spaniel) so does a friend of mine here in Winnipeg and another in Ontario. All are good gundogs that run and point quite well. All are mediocre retrievers and water workers. All of us that own them have come to the conclusion that as far as training them goes, it is easy if you just let them get out there and hunt...they will figure it out themselves. But if you try to push them or put pressure on them to do something more challenging, you need to be a bit of a canine psychologist....They are like a piece of string, you can pull them, but you cannot push them. RE Retrieving: All of the French braques and epagneuls are expected to retrieve and most do...sort of. Some are excellent, natural retrievers but in my experience many are mediocre. The French are just not as demanding of their dogs when it comes to retrieving as are the Germans and others. What a German handler would expect out of a 6 month old puppy with no training is what many French would consider excellent work from their fully trained adult dog. My guess would be that the Picardy and has the best natural retrieve and strongest water work among the French breeds. That is why it appeals to me. The Pont Audemer Spaniel should be an excellent retriever since it is closely related to the Irish Water Spaniel. It should also be an outstanding water worker. Unfortunately there are so few of them left and they have been modified more towards the run and point aspect that they are like all the other French breeds....sort of , kind of OK at retrieving. A French Spaniel look-alike, the Drent is an excellent retriever. |
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| briarlow |
Chiendog, there are a couple of Spanish working on Ontario have you ever met up with them? I know that there aren't many of the breed in your country, maybe still in single figures! | ||
| chiendog |
I've seen two Spanish HPR breeds in Spain. The Perdiguero de Burgos and the Pachon Navarro (double nosed spanish pointer). Next spring I hope to see yet another breed, the Perdiguero Galego. You may be referring to the Spanish Water dog though. I have not seen any. My main interest at this point, and the subject of my book, is the FCI group 7 "pointing breeds", specifically the continental breeds referred to in the UK as HPR's (Versatiles in North America). I'd like to see a Spanish Water Dog one day. I am a big fan of the Irish Water Spaniel and generally like curly coats. |
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| windem bang |
Thanks Chiendog, that was good info. I look forward very much to reading your book when it is published.
Sue - What other H.P.R. breed not seen in this country takes my fancy was your question. They all do is the short answer! If I lived another 60 years I still wouldn't have enough time to test drive all the dogs that interest me! I tend to like dogs that can "go" that would knock out some of the breeds. If I'd had the money and had been born in the states I'd probably have loved chasing after pointers of any kind on horseback. I just love watching dogs "go!" As I've said to a few people I like watching dogs that don't give me time to yawn and scratch my backside! I'm probably no longer able to train this kind of dog but I still like them! This was one of the things I liked about Brittanies. The first one I had I carried in my gamebag at 11 weeks onto the farm for "training." When I hauled her out of the bag by the scruff of the neck her wee legs would start going - she hit the ground already running! Chiendogs post interested me partly because he differentiated between natural ability and trained ability. That same first Brit was bloody awful to train to retrieve - until I shot game out in front of her point. She at once retreived that game. I'd knocked my pan in for months working with all sorts of dummies and cold game with little or no success. All that time, all I'd had to do was SHOOT SOMETHING!!! When I first became interested in H.P.R.'s I read what I could about the various breeds. I noticed a French breed and at first I thought it was a G.S.P. they looked very similar in the photographs. I have no idea how well this French breed works but it did make me wonder why the G.S.P. had been developed at all - it seemed to already exist! I would still like to see Spanish Water Dogs work, again if I had the money and another lifetime, I would have liked to develop this breed into H.P.R.'s worthy of note in this country. In praise of the present owners of this breed in this country, I would say they have been honest. With this breed, as far as pointing is concerned, it is a case of, " Some do, some don't, some will, some won't!" Not quite what you'd want to hear if you needed a hunt- point- retriever. Thank you again Chiendog for your very informative posts. Bill T. |
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