sako75
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To beat or not to beat - that is the question ??I am supposed to be picking up tomorrow but I am actually contimplating joining the beating line (on the same shoot) with my weimaraner bitch for the first time in her life. I am in the process of teaching and re-inforcing steadiness so I thought that it might be a good idea to get her out on fresh ground and take it from there. I am curious to see how she handles the beating line from a hunting point of view and general steadiness with all the other dogs running around. I could pretty much posistion myself any where in the line as the keeper knows that I am training as well as doing a job , so I could easily find a good spot out on the edge of the line and concentrate on uninterupted points and flushes.
I may not go at all as the weather forecast ain't too good but I am interested to hear other members thoughts on this. There may be the danger of other dogs stealing her points and flushing her birds but I feel that she now needs the experience of working in amongst other dogs and may benefit from the new ground to pull her out a wee bit when hunting.
Barry.
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BenB
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Good question - i used Teasel as a peg dog the other day to try and teach her that she can't run constantly. there is no way she would have been any good beating as she was completely in the wrong frame of mind for it.
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windem bang
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Taking in all the pros and cons Barry I'd advise against it. Things tend to go wrong when other peoples dogs are running about in a high state of excitement at the same time as yours . Another reason not to do it is you are in the process of encouraging her to range out. In many circumstances a beaters dog must not do that. You would be de-training her.
Bill T.
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sako75
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Bill ,
I know that the beaters dogs should not range out any great distance but I thought that maybe being on the end of the line would merit a bit more range. You are probably right about not taking her thinking about it but it was just a thought. Not sure whether to pick up with her either as I think my time would be better spent on my ground doing the steadiness thing again - I am running out of days this season  so need to get in as many quality days as possible.
Bill , do you intend to take Buck beating (obviously when he is older) or do you shy away from the beating side of things in favour of picking up from a training point of view ???
Barry.
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Helen
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It's not something I would do, although, it does depend on the type of shoot. If you've got lots of open ground where you would be able to work her on her own, I would consider it. Being in a beating line, in a wood, is no fun for an hpr and it's not much fun for the owner. I don't think it's the best way to train steadiness.
there have been a few discussions on here about beating with hpr's so it might be worth a search.
Helen
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druimmuir
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I ony have 1 hpr and she is a more of a potlicker than a worker  I don't take my young spaniels beating until they are 110% steady, and even then they hunt, then come back to heel when things start getting chaotic ! the beating line is no place in my opinion for dog training, more a case of every mans dog for itself and more dogs are ruined in the beating line than helped with aspects of their training, seeing other dogs run and chase etc will not help Milies steadiness, much better carrying on with the same routines you have been on your own ground, a controlled environment...If you are trying to steady her I would not pick up either, once dogs start running in picking up will only encourage it, I have learnt that the hard way...
Keep training the way you have been Barry, Millies has come on great guns, be a shame to ruin it now just to work the last few day of the seaso but thats only my opinion
Nic
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Claire
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Nope, I definitely wouldn't put Whistle in a beating line. Tried it once with Harris and it was a nightmare. Dogs running all over the blooming place and when he went on point the spaniels were rushing in and flushing the bird so for a while Harris stopped pointing.
Nell, however, is actually very good in the beating line simply because I've done very little gundog training with her but I have obedience. She is a great little hunter, doesn't point because I've never encouraged her or done much about it, she isn't interested in retrieving either, again because of me doing nothing about it and so effectively I can use her as a spaniel because she has a good nose and absolutely loves running along flushing the birds and pegging the odd bunny 
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windem bang
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Barry, you asked if I will eventually work Buck in a beating line? NOT IF I CAN BLOODY WELL HELP IT 
Some H.P.R.'s are calm enough or well trained enough to be beating dogs. Maybe some breeds or lines of dogs are better suited to it than others.
Buck is not calm enough, that's for sure. He'd be drawn off by the other dogs and drawn towards the guns by the shooting. His training isn't good enough either for me to be even 70% sure of controlling him in that environment. If he was calm enough and very easy to control he probably wouldn't be much of a dog in other circumstances. He would in other words not be the dog for me!
The best hunting/pointing dogs seem to live life on the edge of riot, in my opinion anyway! I doubt very much if I can control my kind of dog nowadays but I'll bust a gut trying before I deliberately try to train a dog that should be a runner and ranger to be a boot polisher!!! (No offense intended to any spaniel folk, they do what they are intended to do very well.)
Bill T.
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druimmuir
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Bill
As a spaniel trainer/trialler no offence taken , but trialling spaniels aren't all that different to what you describe, to be a good spaniel trial dog they need extra drive and a touch of devilment, that live life on the edge attitude, however my trial dogs also work as picking up dogs, walked up shooting dogs, do days at duck flights, pigeon shooting, grouse and hare days on the moors, sit as my peg dog on shoot days or go beatig, they certainly don't polish boots but they will and can do any types of shoot day that I ask of them... 
Nicola
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windem bang
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Nicola, I am a great admirer of spaniels, I've had a couple myself and I used to hang around with spaniel training and trialling handlers and trialling judges. I've never competed in a spaniel trial, I've only ever won a second place in a spaniel test with a little bitch I trained for a friend two or three times a week.
As I said in my post spaniels are good at their job and that includes pigeon decoying and maybe a little wildfowling. When I said "bootpolisher" in my post I was not referring to spaniels working as close as they are meant to do and I didn't mean they are slow either, some of the little sods I've seen in trials and out rough shooting would make you dizzy!
My bootpolisher comment was maybe a bit stupid of me but I meant it to apply to the type of H.P.R. that never gets going in either range or pace. For an H.P.R. to work well as a beaters dog it has to cut down drastically on range and speed - by H.P.R. standards it becomes a boot polisher. That's fine if beatings about all you want to do but I stick to my guns that it's not fine if you want to work the dog as an H.P.R. under other conditions.
I know you weren't really annoyed at me but thought I'd better clear that one up - I do not think spaniels are boot polishers - not by their neccessary work standards.
Bill T.
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druimmuir
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Bill T,
Not annoyed at all  Really appreciate you taking the time to clarify now I see where you're coming from 
Nice to hear you've also had spaniels and good ones as well by the sounds of it
Nicola
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windem bang
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Nicola, the only thing wrong with spaniels isn't the spaniels - it's me!!! My own "I want to do it NOW!" temperament gets me frustrated with working a spaniel at its' proper range. I always want to know if there's anything in that little bush 70 yards off to the side of the hunt direction. With a spaniel you either just have to miss it out or you have to take the dog off its line of hunt and walk out to the bush. With an H.P.R. it will either take the scent from the bush area in the course of its normal hunt pattern or a wave of the arm will send the dog out to the bush.
This suits my natural impatience, my natural curiousity and my natural laziness to walk to it !
Bill T.
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sako75
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Can I just add that I have been out with Nic's spaniels and spaniels that she has bred - BOOT POLISHERS more like MINI TORNADOS - these dogs can hunt , they are fascinating and a real pleasure to watch and shoot over - you can buy me that pint when I next see you Nic ....
Going back to the original thread , I do appreciate that the beating line is really no place for the HPR for many a reason. I suppose it was silly of me to even think of taking my dog after all the hard work that I have done BUT I was merely wandering what other members thoughts were on the subject. There is no way I would take her on any other shoot to beat but in my defence , on this particular shoot , I would be totally left to my own devices and use the day to my advantage. The advantages being getting her used to the shoot environment , other dogs and the main advantage being that I would get the chance to hunt her on open ground with game out on the end of the beating line. This shoot lends itself well to this (open moorland). There are a couple of drives which are in dense woodland but I would not use Millie in these situations.
I have thought about it and have come to the conclusion that I will not take her beating for the simple reason that there is probably far more to lose than to gain from the day. I will spend the day on my own ground doing what I have been doing (teaching a dog to run-in ). I am looking forward to tomorrow already and hopefully I can get a good days training done.
Thanks for everyones input !!
Barry.
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druimmuir
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Hope you have a good day tomorrow Barry whatever you fially decide to do .
As for that pint, no worries owe you for those nice comments about the dogs, glad they made a lasting impression on someone for the right reasons for a change
Look forward to reading tomorrows events, we are off up the snowy Fettercairn tomorrow for a days picking up...bbbrrrrr
Nic
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Bareve
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I wouldn't take a dog that I was still training or thinking of trialling into a beating line. No matter what your plans would be and the areas you think you will be able to work in how are you going to cover the barrage of shots - are you going to make her sit to them all and end up doing nothing or let her work through some and not others so she scratches her head and thinks "he's gone barmy" 
Why not ask the keeper if you can go back to the shoot the day after and swing through the drives used to see if there has been some shot/injured birds that haven't been picked? I did that quite a bit the first season I trialled as it gave me the chance to work on my own, in ground where there were birds and yet not too many birds as they had been moved on the day before. You can still get the opportunity to work onto points/flush as you come across any birds but you are also doing a job that the keeper may not be wanting to do.
Another aspect that we do down here is that a group of people "buy" rough shooting days and split it between dogs and guns. We try and get like minded people with about 5 dogs and a couple of people interested in shooting and share the cost. Means we get a good day with our dogs, the guns get some sport and it's not an arm and a leg cost wise.
Just some ideas
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cressy
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I take Mugi beating, he loves it BUT he is 11.5 now and only started gundog work after 10 yrs of pethood. His general obedience is good and after a few months of work he is now sharp and I have to keep on top of him or he is off even at his advanced age. I can see no circumstance where Chase will be beating, beaten maybe .
Next season I have been told I may be allowed some limited picking up with both dogs if I can improve their delivery (well Chase is only just starting to be asked for more formal retrieves so he needs to learn delivery from scratch) which is great - I will need to do a higher percentage of beating to get this opportunity but hey, I like it!!!!
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countrygirl
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The only time I have ever taken mine beating is on beaters day when we do the entire shoot part of the day I can pick up as normal and at some points we all walk through the woods togeather. But this has only ever been with my old experianced dogs that dont trial any longer and then if anything should happen there is till the start of the next season to sort it.
I have been out today and have one very tired wirehair she has taken herself of to bed lol. She is progressing but still very green.
One thing that I always take advantage of is at the end of the season for a few weeks alot of the beaters go peigon shooting on a Saturday afternoon and the keper lets me have acess to the woods for pointing and flushing practice. this gives me the chance to point and flush alot birds(before he catches them up) and is also good practice for spring pointing.
Caz
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WiskeyJaR
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To beat or not to beat?.....no question......YA NEVER BEAT ON YOUR DOG shheeese and I thought ya folks from 'cross the pond was the more "gentle' of the trainings......<Shakes head sadly>
Sorry, couldnt resist the pun folks, the subject title kinda hooked me at frist....(Chuckles)
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windem bang
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Hi Whiskey, it's O.K. once we've finished beating we "pick-up" the bits - they all go into a "doggy - bag!"
Bill T.
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BritAnnie
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OR a 'doggy'doo' bag. Did you see that girl on TV learning to be a kennelmaid the other day, you should have seen her face as she was shown the poly bag routine - she came out of the doors at the end and said straight to the camera "NO WAY"
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langhaar
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I always take my young dogs in the beating line two or three times. They go on a lead tho which is difficult when you are going thro maize etc, but is worth it as my dogs learn so much. Hunting with a GLP isn't an issue, they do this instinctivly. What they learn is steadiness to flushing birds, deer and hare and doing what they are told in the shooting field. If they behave they might get to hunt a hedgerow if I'm no where near other dogs. The keeper knows I trial my dogs so if they are not let loose he doesn't pay me dog handler rate. Neither does he tolerate out of control ones!
I wouldn't take them on shoots who allow disobedient dogs, neither would I take one who is vocal. I did take the Vizsla too who impressed the beatkeepers, so much so one is thinking of having one and he's a die hard cocker man!
It's what you want at the end of the day and what's best for your dogs.
It improves mine but might not work for others.
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munstyman
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Hi Barry,
I think you have a good balance of opinion and reasoning in the thread, especially as Langhaar just pipped me to the one reason that I would take mine into a beating line, namely not to actually work but to get use to the atmosphere and to test my basic controls and training.
I guess most dogs that go into beating are by their owners standards trained But as we all know a dog that will do as its told in a training situation is not necessarily `trained' when it comes to a `shooting day', and you will never know until you try it.
So with this in mind, the dog is not allowed to hunt at all, it will only be walked at heel on and off lead as the situation dictates, stopped and sat.
Peter
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sako75
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Well folks , Typical me - I ended up beating today when I said that I would not . I originally intended picking up but the keeper preferred it if I joined the beaters as we were down on beaters for the day and already had a couple of picker uppers. At first I was not keen and was ready to go home in a huff but to be polite I completed the day and have to say that I really enjoyed it and Millie was great.
A full report in my diary coming up.
Barry.
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