UK chapter of NAVHDA?

josie

I agree with all that's been said, especially the need for grading, as opposed to competition. Mike has hit the nail on the head with the reasons for this.

We have always thought about moving to the US and so I'm naturally interested in what is available, dog-competition-wise, over there and have been looking into it. At the GSP Sussex test last week, there was a v nice American guy who won Novice with his GSP he brought over from the US, and I got talking to him. Turns out he is a NAVHDA judge in the US and now more than ever, I wish there was something like that available over here.

For NAVHDA there is a NA test, for dogs up to 16 months old. Then there is a UTP - Utility Preparation test - and a Utility Test. Each test is scored on certain set, specific criteria. Dogs are awarded Prize I (highest), Prize II or Prize III. (These are not 1st, 2nd, 3rd - if they were the right standard, all dogs entered could get a Prize I. )

More to the point, there are 3 judges watching every part of the test and a maximum of 10 dogs which can enter each day. All judges must attend a judging clinic every 2 years, to ensure they are all grading equally. At the clinics they discuss certain scenarios - what happens if X happens, how would the dog be graded?

The US KC holds hunt tests, where HPRs earn JH, SH, MH titles (Junior, Senior, Master Hunter). Again, these are not competitive and are against a standard rather than each other. Their FTs are competitive.

By the way, we need 10 people who are interested and then I believe we could set up a NAVHDA chapter (club) in the UK. There are NAVHDA clubs in Canada and they have an international section. We just need 10 members to start off with.

lagopuslagopus

That sounds a good idea Josie. Not being competitive I would much prefer that system. Count me in if you do anything.

Mike

I'm game as well, maybe a new thread is required Jo?

josie

Ok, have emailed NAVHDA and will let you know what they say.

One problem I foresee is that some of their tests may not be either desirable or even legal in the UK. One of the UT tests involves retrieving a living, shackled duck - unshot. They seem to have a different attitude to this than what we have, and not such a black/white thing about shot/unshot game.

On the other hand, as they are so into their standards and all tests being equal (which is commendable), I doubt they will allow any alterations to what is required for a UK chapter.

Maybe we can only do their NA tests, which contain nothing we would find undesirable....let's see what they say....

lagopuslagopus

Sounds like what we could really do with is an 'english' version that would be acceptable over here

josie

Just for info, here are the summaries of the tests (much more detail is available online):

NA TEST

1. Field Phase

The dog is hunted in cover where the presence of game has been assured by the releasing of game birds. At 2 random points during the hunt, the judge will signal a gunner to fire one round of blank ammunition from a shotgun in order to watch the dog's reaction to gunfire. The dog will be marked as "Not Gunshy" "Gun Sensitive" or "Gunshy".

2. Tracking Phase

The dog is given an opportunity to track a flightless running pheasant. A flightless pheasant is released in the area reserved for the tracking. The 7 primary feathers on one wing of the bird are removed (pulled out, not cut) thereby rendering the bird flightless. A few soft feathers are pulled from the bird and used to mark the spot where the bird was released. The tracks must be laid down wind or cross wind, never into the wind. The cover should be about 8-10" high. After the bird has gone some distance and is out of sight, the dog is brought to the release spot and the handler sets the dog off on the track. After releasing the dog, the handler will stand quietly, facing forward and allow the dog to track on its own. The track should end in cover which takes advantage of the bird's instinct to hide. At the discretion of the handler, the dog may or may not be shown the game bird prior to its release.

3. Water Phase

The dog is tested for its willingness to swim - dummy thrown into water - repeated. A dog that leaps into the water will not be scored any higher than the dog that enters without hesitation in a more deliberate manner. The retrieve is immaterial and dogs that retrieve the thrown object will not receive higher scores. The importance is whether or not the dog has the desire and self confidence to swim twice.

4. Judgement of physical characteristics (conformation)

No game is shot and no retrieves are required during the Natural Ability test.

Allyson

Oh I would like a bash at that. I would have thought most dogs would be well capable of this?

lagopuslagopus

There is actually less involved in that than in the LMC Natural Aptitude test, which has a track but on something dead rather than alive.

josie

Oops I forgot to say - dogs have to be 16 months and under to enter the NA test.

After the NA test comes the UPT or Utility Preparatory Test. This is based on the same things as the Utility Test, but has slightly lower standards. For eg - dogs in the UPT don't have to deliver to hand - full details are:

UPT TEST

1. Water Tests:

a. Water Search

This is a test of the dog's ability to locate downed game. Dog and handler are positioned back from the water's edge, so that neither can see the duck thrown. A dead duck is placed into cover in swimming depth water, out of the dog's sight. The handler is given a gun with one blank shell. The judge tells the handler in which direction to shoot. The shot will not be in the direction of the duck. The dog can leave with the shot and still receive a high score. The dog is expected to intelligently and diligently search the area for the duck. The dog is given 10 mins or less. The retrieve is not necessary unless the dog makes contact with the duck. If the dog locates the duck, a prompt retrieve is required. If the dog retrieves the duck in too short a time to make a proper judgement, the will be asked to continue the search. THe handler is given another blank shell and asked to shoot and send his dog again.

b. Walking At Heel

Dog to be heeled, on or off lead, for approx 25 yards to a position by a blind set up on the shore. The handler will carry a gun. The dog that walks beside the handler, off lead or on a loose lead and requires no command receives the highest score.

c. Steadiness by Blind

The handler will position his dog by the blind, remove the lead and load his gun with a blank shell. He will signal that he is ready. The Judge will signal the duck thrower. When the duck is in the air, the handler will aim at the duck and fire a blank. After a pause, the handler sends the dog for the retrieve. There should be a a distinct time interval between the fall of the duck and the handler's command to fetch. The dog is expected to stay until sent.

d. Retrieve of a Duck

The dog is expected to mark the fall of the duck and complete his task with desire and enthusiasm. The duck should not be thrown into cover. The handler should stand back from the water's edge so that the dog has to carry the duck out of the water. For the UPT retrieve the dog should bring the bird within reach of the handler to receive a (4) (top score), it does not have to bring the bird to hand.

2. Field Tests:

a. Search

Each dog will be hunted for 25 mins over typical hunting terrain. During the search, the handler wil carry an unloaded, break-open shotgun. On flushed birds, the handler will close and swing the gun as if shooting the bird. Strong flying game birds will be released in the field under the direction of the Senior Judge. The search should show some maturity and purpose. Dogs in the UPT are not required to be steady to shot, so great care must be taken to shoot birds safely. If there is no opportunity for a retrieve during the search, the dog may be held while a bird is shot for judgement of retrieve before he leaves the field.

b. Pointing

Judgement of pointing begins when a convincing point is established and ends when the dog is aware of the handler's presence. Points must be intense and productive.

c. Steadiness on Game

The highest score in steadiness requires that there be quiet confident team work between dog and handler through steady to wing. As a minimum, the dog must permit his handler to move in front to begin the flush.

d. Retrieve of a Shot Bird

The dog should pick the bird up and return it directly to his handler with the minimum of commands.

e. Retrieve by Drag

A cold bird will be provided for the drag. The track laid by the judge dragging dead game is simply a means of getting the dog from the handler to the game, it is such an obvious track that it is not a test of nose. The drag will be approx 50 yards and will end with the game out of sight of the handler. If the game is not retrieved, the score is 0, not matter how precisely the track is followed.

Assessment of physical attributes, use of nose, desire to work and cooperation are marked throughout the tests.

Marjolein

And if it's not working out through NAVDA, you could always make your own natural ability test, based on the VJP and HZP!!! Good plan girls and boys and good luck with it. I find this a great initiative!!!!!!!

anne

We are NAVHDA members and our dogs are NAVHDA registered and participate in their testing system. I find it to be an excellent way to test our dogs since AKC does not acknowledge our dogs as versatile hunting dogs, rather lumps them into the pointing breeds.

Weims are having a great couple years, I think the next Inviational we will see the most Weims ever invited (need a Prize I UT to get invited).

Good luck with this, it's a great idea.

munstyman

Need you ask Question

Count me in.
ps. Mike I've discovered a simple trick to get round my long post disappearing problem. I know use copy on the toolbar before I press submit, then if it disappears i can paste it straight back instantly. Cool

just had to use it on the other thread so I know it works. Shocked

Mike

josie

NAVHDA say: "We don't operate out off North America."

Sad

josie

What is involved in the German tests exactly, and how do they compare to NAVHDA? NAVHDA claim their tests are based on the German tests - is this correct, how do they compare? Do they involve a retrieve on a shackled duck too?

Helen

Found this:

http://www.weimclubamerica.org/worldweims/hunttest/index.html

Fourth para down.

Helen

Marjolein

I did both a VJP and HZP with Daantje. Dogs can be entered for a VJP when they're born before the 1st of Oktober of the year before and they can't be older than 15 months. The same goes for the HZP, which is held in the autumn of the same year the HZP is held. Both tests are mainly natural ability tests, but with the HZP they expect some obedience as well.

The VJP (verbands jügend prüfung) is simple and you don't need to train much for this. But of course, the more you train, the bigger the chance you'll get high points.
You're entered in a group of 4, maybe 5 dogs usually and there are 3 judges. The most important thing of this test, is the field work. The dog is released and has to show how good he is at this. With Daan, I was really surprised at the judging. I released her, she took off and covered the whole width of the field, stopped for a poo and started running again and suddenly she was on point beautifully. I was NOT allowed to flush the game, but I had to put her on the lead again and it was over and done with, while she hadn't even showed them what she was capable of.
Turned out it was a warm spot of a hare which they'd seen when we first arrived at the field. They want the dog to point first and once he's done that, it's another dogs turn. When all dogs have pointed, it's time for the searching. While fieldworking, they judge the searching, the nose and the pointing seperatly. One of the worst and hardest part of this test is the tracking of a hare. The judge and participants search the fields for a hare. Once a hare goes away, you have to put a dog in a down position so he can't see where the hare is going. Once it's going, the dog has to track the hare for at least 200 mtr's (if I remember correctly). The more persistant they are, the better it is. If a dog does well, he earns a 10, if he's loud while tracking or while chasing the hare, he gets a 12.
I only got a 6 for this btw, since I had been training Daan not to chase them of course Confused

.
The fifth part is judged over all these seperate tests and is the Führigkeit. I think cooperation with the owner is the best description for this word.
Further down you can see my results. You can see what points they give and how they calculate. Nose and hare tracking is multiplied by 2 for example because they consider this very important.

Then the HZP (herbst zucht prüfung). You can do the hare tracking again during the HZP, but of course I didn't. Then the nose, searching, pointing and cooperation is judged again, but they also judge the will to please during this test.
The second part is the waterwork. The start with a seen retrieve of a duck, while they fire a shot over the head of the dog while he's in the water. The second one is a blind retrieve, without a gunshot.
Te third part is quite difficult. They set free a duck which can't fly anymore. They let it swim until it's out of sight and then the dog has to follow the track in the water for at least 10 minutes. When he finds the duck, the dog is supposed to chase it until it's in open water so the hunter can shoot it and the dog can retrieve it. I was unlucky during this test. "My duck" was a clever one and dove for at least 20 mtr's. There was no way Daan could find it again, despite her efforts. I still got a 9 for it btw. So far the natural ability part of this test.
The obedience has 2 more test. Tracking a dead duck over 200 mtr's and tracking a dead hare over 200 mtr's. They judge the way the dog tracks, the way he brings back the game and the how he hands it over to the handler.
Here's the HZP results of Daan:

josie

Thanks Mar, that is v interesting. Will you do the VGP too? Did you have to travel far to do those?

It's all a bit overwhelming, the number of different tests around!!

Marjolein

No Jo, I haven't done a VGP (yet) with Daan. I want to concentrate on the fieldwork first, before I'll think about that again. It is my wish though to do it one day. I will definately do it with Billy btw.

anne

It sounds like NAVHDA is fairly close. We've done Natural Ability and Utility with our dogs.

In all tests, except for the Invitational, the dogs are run singly, and all tests have 3 judges.

The NA test is fairly simple and is exactly as the name implies. In the field phase they are looking for a solid point and how they hunt and cover ground. In the water, they are merely looking for swimming, the retrieve is irrelevant, altho if the dog does not go in following a dummy, the judges will throw in a bird and if a bird is needed to get the dog in, you cannot score a 4 (the highest score). The track is on a live running pheasant and you have the choice to either show the dog the bird before hand or not. They are not looking for a perfect track, rather the persistence on the track.

In UT, I think the water phase is the most difficult, most dogs I have observed in this test, mess up on the duck search. It's a blind search with retrieve not necessary. The pond must have reeds and cover and the dog must search for the entire 10 minutes. They also do a steadiness at the blind test, with the handler out of site and with multiple shots fired. In this portion of the test, they also test for obedience with a heeling exercise. Lastly, they are to do a duck retrieve. The tracking portion is a drag, either fur (you provide) or feather. They are to retrieve the item back to hand. The field portion is a 30 minute test and requires a finished performance with the dog steady to wing and shot and retrieves to hand. There are gunners that shoot but the handler is to carry a gun and swing the gun as if shooting. Earning a Prize I gets you an invitational, where only about 35% of the dogs entered pass. With a pass the dog gets to be called a Versatile CH. Currently there is only one Weim that has this title, VC/DC/AFC Magum Gunnar Silvershot, MH, SDX, RDX, VX, owned by Judy Balog in Michigan.

All through the test, things like cooperation and desire are also tested. The tests are scored similarly to how I understand the Germans do it, where each item is scored from 0-4 and then weighted (1-4). Pointing would be weighted by 4 (so a score of 4 in pointing would be multiped by 4 for a possible 16 points). You are awarded Prizes (I, II or III, I being best) but due to the scoring system you can have get a higher prize with less points as there are certain categories that if you don't get a 4 in, you cannot get a Prize I. Pointing would be an example of this.

Our Dual Ch Riley was tested in Utility a couple months ago and got a Prize III, which, considering that we train in the desert and cannot get to water easily and thus haven't trained for the duck search, was actually a pretty good score. We'll try re-testing him later.

My Blue girl got a Prize I in Natural Ability and also a perfect score of 112 (4's in all categories). Again, we need the water practice to go further with her.

My field trial pup got a Prize III in Natural Ability Sad

which she is capable of so much more but we decided retesting her was going to set her training back so we'll train for Utility and keep working her.

tashap

I'm game too.... Very Happy

much better idea and at least we could do it based on the dogs performance instead of winning. Will training be available??

Who will do the judging though???