Whats gone wrong!

shirley cooper · Whats gone wrong!

We have an 11 1/2 mth old weim bitch and 11 mth old HWV bitch. Up until the last month or so I have done all the training as OH at work and no chance of him getting out till nights got lighter etc. He wanted to work the HWV and so I was to handle the weim (he hasn't done any of this training previously and I only have experience with my 2 yr old male weim). We had a day training on the Moors with Andy Cullen and the HWV didn't take to the heather very well and in the afternoon when the gallery was nearer to the action she kept running back to me/other dog. We then had a hare & pointing training day with the HWVCGB and an SPT where the trend continued - she would work for OH in the moring but in the afternoon immediately ran to me. We then had another training day with HWVCGB and as soon as she was cast off in the morning she ran to me so we made the decision to swap dogs and she worked really well for me all day.
On the 1st hare training day she had quite a few hare chases - winning the award for hare coursing but on 2nd day we didn't see any. She has always covered the ground well and out of the 2 showed the most promise when I took them to Trevor Rigby in February.
This week we went back to see Trevor and to say I was shocked at her behaviour is an understatement. Initially she got out but was not working methodically at all and was going round in circles - poss hare scent and ignored me completely when I whistled her. Not like her at all! Eventually got her back to me but she then wouldn't get out very far. She started to chase a hare but I managed to stop her and when she saw another one although she could easily have gone she didn't attempt to. After this though she would hardly move away from me at all. At the end of the session on a loose lead I walked her towards a hare and she sat immediately on signal so at least we got something out of the session.
Last night I took her out to a field nearby and again she refused to get out at all virtually walking to heel the whole time. There isn't a lot of game in this field but is usually a pair of partridge and sometimes a pheasant in the next field that the dogs get scent of.
I have mostly worked her in woodland as the local farmer don't take kindly to us on their field and she usually works like a dream so am at a loss as to what to do. Should I just ignore behaviour and hope she will get over it/try going back to woods for a while and leave fields alone.

countrygirl

Im no expert by a long shot, has she had a season could she be thinking about coming in bitches are funny things as I have discovered after years of working dogs.

I would think it is only natural for her to be attatched to you as you have done the training with her(I work the dogs in our household and my husband is not allowed to do any training with them), do you train the two youngsters independtly or take them out togeather is she coming back to you or the other dog Question

JUst some things to think about hope it may be of some help

Caz

shirley cooper

Thanks Caz,All thoughts and advice more than welcome.

She hasn't had a season yet and did wonder about that too. I train the dogs independantly although very occasionally they go out together. I think it is me she is coming back to as on the training days when I took over with her OH had the other dog and she was working well. Its the "not getting out" this week thats concerning me really. One thing as well last night on our way to the field she was pulling back as if she didn't want to go whereas normally she is dead keen.

josie

How have you dealt with the hare chasing? Has she been corrected for it? Just going by what you've written here, it sounds like she doesn't want to get out in case she finds a hare - she has taken herself back to your side....

countrygirl

Although I train my sepratly they are half sisters one 3.5 and the other 10 months they are great mates and play alot togeather and after tomarrow I will know how things work out with them being togather at a working test at shows the pup is always looking for her big sister so time will tell

I do wonder if in your bitches case it is hormons they do do strange things

Caz

windem bang

I am inclined to ask the same questions as Josie. You are dealing with one of the most sensitive of all the H.P.R. breeds. I think she doesn't want to "go" because she doesn't want to be stopped - she sees being stopped as a correction.

Out of interest- If you put down a long memory retrieve for her, say 100-200 yards would she go out keenly for that or would she freeze up on you ?

Bill T.

shirley cooper

On the previous training days nothing was done about the hare chase as she ignored the whistle and OH shouting and was too far away within seconds to do anything. On her way back to OH another got up then another then another so she was simply but back on the lead when she did return. This week she started to chase and I wasnt too far from her, blew whistle - nothing, so ran and shouted to leave it which she did. When she made no attempt to chase the others and sat I praised her. I did think it might be this and can't remember exact sequence but think she wasn't getting out as far as usual before the hare hence why I was near enough to stop her. Could be wrong though!

Bill will try the memory retrieve to see if she goes out for that, thanks.

Helen

I would agree with Caz, possibly season looming. My gwp bitch goes barmy when she is due in season!

I also have a working english setter and you really can't giv her a harsh word. Rob was working her on the grouse (early on in her training), and she pointed and flushed a grouse. She started to chase and he told her off. She stopped and he thought nothing of it. They didn't see any more grouse that day. The next time she was out, she went on point but then backed out of the point and wouldn't go back in. We put it down to Rob shouting at her previously. It took quite a while to get her working.

She is incredibly sensitive and won't work in the fog as she got lost in it last counting season and it terrified her. She will usually walk to heel if she is unsure of anything and just won't get out and hunt. When she does, she's a dream but it can be tricky, knowing what is going to set her off. Bless her!

Helen

DesO'Neile

I don't know what you should be expecting form your dogs as I don't have in depth knowledge of the breeds but I NEVER chastise on game. To me the idea of having a "Hare Training Day" before I have practiced the drop ad nauseum is a total anathama.
It is obviously difficult to give meaningful advice from a distance but several things stick out:-

1. Every time you permit a dog to chase a hare you are effectively "teaching" it to chase hares and from what you have written the dog is being taught to wilfully ignore commands as well.

2. You run the risk of making a dog sticky if you chastise it round game of any sort.

3. A change of jocky will encourage a dog to push the envelope again and should only be done on at least a semi permanent basis.

Teach the dog "The Drop"
This is the best advice I can offer and here are some hints from my site.
http://glencuanpointers.wordpress.com/2003/01/31/the-drop/

http://glencuanpointers.wordpress.com/the-glencuan-way/

shirley cooper

windem bang

Yes - anything that boosts her confidence to leave you and search might help. Memory retrieves are good for this because usually the dog can find it easily - so no stops or redirections would be required. Your dog could run without needing to be stopped . Only once the dog was red hot keen at doing this would I place the dummy where a little bit of hunting would be needed to find it.

My hope would be that doing this would give your dog its confidence back to get out away from you.

Bill T.

shirley cooper

shirley cooper

I think it is a confidence thing with her Bill. Since my last post she has been retrieving no problem and also when I walked her up the bridal path on monday she went hunting in the field for a while and yesterday we went to the woods she was getting away from me although not as well as she used to. Tonight though we have hit another problem - we took her to a class at the local Gundog Club - mostly labs and all was ok until someone shouted at their dog and she started shaking and was very reluctant to walk to heel. When it was her turn to retrieve she went out for the dummy but ran away with it back to the car. She did this twice and was obviously very scared so I stayed at the car with her and did a couple of retrieves with her to try and boost her confidence. After a while I started to walk back to join the group and she was fine until someone shouted at their dog again and she refused to move.

I can only think that this has arisen from when we went to the SPT and she ran off from OH to try to get to me some members of the gallery were shouting and gesturing at her to try and get her back to my husband and then last week when she was messing about the trainer shouted at her and thats when she decided to stay by me.

windem bang

If this were a U.S. forum you would be advised on how to use live game to draw your dog out from you. Giving that advice on a British forum would end up in trouble.

Join an American forum ,ignore any advice concerning e- collars ,you have a very sensitive dog . Read carefully how to use game to your advantage, then decide how you want to proceed.

I think your gundog training classes are working against you. It's not really the class's fault as gundogs get shouted at all the time, during training and at shoots. Most dogs cope well with this but you have one of the odd dogs out. Personally I would stop going to the classes and would start to look for game using binoculars if neccessary and once I knew where game definetly was I'd work my dog towards it using a quiet but very excited voice. When my dog found it I wouldn't care if it pointed it or not just as long as it "wound" my dog up. I would cheer my dog on as it chased flushed game right off the field !

Others may feel differently but I can train a dog not to chase I can't train it to run hard and wide only its own enthusiasm for the job can do that and chasing promotes enthusiasm..................... Wink

Bill T.

shirley cooper

Thanks Bill, until a few weeks ago I thought she was "hard as nails" nothing seemed to phase her. Now its like she is a different dog!

magyar viz