Where to draw the line?

DesO'Neile · Where to draw the line?

What is the general consensus of opinion on the acceptability of breeding from a dog with a known defect?
Would some people insist that a hip score is only acceptable if it is 0:0?
What about a dog that is undershot?

BritAnnie

On a purely personal basis I will only breed with dogs which have a hip score lessthan teh current breed average - in our case 17.
I wouldn't breed with a dog with an undershot jaw, although injuries cause to the dentition during or after birth as verified by a vet on x-ray might be acceptable. (proven accidents of birth you might say rather than inherited)
BA

Blue

As far as hips, nothing less than an A or excellent rating.

Under/overshot...not sure, would depend on how great a hunter he/she was.

windem bang

I owned an undershot labrador. I would have happily bred from him had anyone asked for a mating. I know better than most people that this is a hereditary condition since I am undershot and so were my father and grandfather. It is a condition that has never bothered any of us in any way. We all talk just fine and eat and drink just fine ! It caused none of us any pain whatsoever and the same condition didn't bother my lab either, he was a good retriever of everything he was sent for.

I would like all dogs to be H.D. free but veterinary knowledge of this condition still is not anywhere near 100%. I do not trust the xray test.

Many dog owners who screen their dogs for this condition will not allow their dogs to do anything strenuous for 1 to 1 1/2 years of age. It could be that a dog that is allowed to jump etc long before that age shows a hip score of, for example 20. Is that dog then worse than one that has never been allowed to jump etc. and which has a hip score of 16 ? The 16 score dog may be below breed average and be thought O.K. to be bred from but what would its score have been had it been allowed full exercise ? The dog that scored 20 may actually be the better dog.

Bill T.

Linda W

I would not use a dog that was under/overshot, but would, and have, use as dog with a hip score that is slightly more than the breed average.

My own dogs are not kept in cotton wool. They are allowed to build up muscle tone naturally. My old bitch (now 10 years old) used to tear up and down stairs regularly as a pup as I lived in an upstairs flat for a while. Her hip score is 7. Her son is 5. Running and jumping hasn't done either of them any harm.

tashap

I'd go with the breed score average can't see the point in being too careful regarding exercise otherwise the scores are worthless I'd like an honest score taken after the bones have set.

I wouldn't use or breed from a dog that is under or over shot though its asking for trouble and the next generation could be alot worse than the dog your breeding from which could be a real problem.

I have bred from a dog though that had one missing P4 tooth the space was there but no tooth and I had to be very careful about the stud I used, thankfully all the pups so far have a full set of nashers but will take another look at 18 months to see how they are getting on. I also advised my puppy owners that this was a fault in the dam and to make sure if they did breed that they checked the mouth of the mate to try and avoid it cropping up again.

Its a difficult question really because the point of breeding is to improve on what you've got so I guess it depends on the fault...

Mike

Personal feeling is that it depends on the severity of the fault and whether or not it is a congenital defect (pre birth environmental cause) or a genetic one (the two can be hard to separate) and the positive qualities of the dog in question, do the positives outweigh the negatives for my goals from this breeding? I guess if you are in a popular breed with many examples of the trait you are looking for then it is easier to be "fussy" but if you are in a breed that is lacking in something and you are lucky enough to have an example that exhibits a rare trait even if they are less than perfect in other area then surely it makes sense to breed from them and try to address the flawed areas whilst trying to retain the good traits?

Simply put there are no perfect dogs, you make the best guess you can on the evidence in front of you, then you throw the dice and wait and see what happens...

Sally

Its a difficult decision and one that I have just faced - I have a young dog bought in for the reason that he comes from a working line that I know well, with long lived healthy dogs in the pedigree and was a perfect match for my bitch (also from a long lived healthy line) with a low inbreeding coefficient.
He has a great temperament, good working potential, BUT at 14 weeks a problem developed with his jaw so now he has a partially undershot jaw - his permanent incisors were prevented from taking up their correct place, so they erupted vertically, rather than lying forwards, in a straight line behind the milk teeth, leaving him undershot at the front but with perfectly occluded canines, premolars and molars.
It was something that I wrestled with for months, and I had him examined by the top orthodontal specialist in the country. Eventually I decided that the positive aspects far outweighed the dental problem, the bitch has no known dental problems in her line (6 generations), and it was a problem that I was aware of. I could have gone to another stud and inherited the same problem. So for me it was better the devil you know. As it happens he sired 9 pups and no problems.
From a breeding point of view I think we should try to avoid being hung up on one particular fault and look at the whole dog, and more importantly look at whats behind the dog, as that is what tends to come out in the pups. bloat, heart disease, epilepsy are far more important considerations than correct dentition or even a low hip score as a low scored parent does not guarantee a low scored pup. For me my aim is to produce healthy long lived dogs and if they excel at working it is a bonus. Another bonus - he is incredibly soft mouthed!