| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Greyghost |
Why behavioral science is losing the training warsA friend posted this up on Face Book this morning. Very interesting.Article |
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| windem bang |
Well posted Lesley. That was an interesting read . Basically the guy seems to be saying that if you want to train a dog just mix and match with what works for that dog using any tools available or even no tools at at all ?
I agree with that approach , I never have needed to work things out scientifically in order to make them work in everyday life. Train to the dog and not to the "method." Bill T. |
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| Greyghost |
Have to admit Bill I am doing a right mix at the moment. Buddy and I have had a training session with Rory and we started clicker training classes two weeks ago. I am seeing what works best for him and he does seem a little deaf sometimes so I need to shout other times a whisper will suffice.
However, I saw a bloke on the field yesterday trying to get his dog to do a 'down' by holding the dogs cheeks, up on his back legs, shaking his head and shouting so loud that my dogs got excited 100 yards away. Now THAT is just a downright insult to the dog's intelligence 
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| windem bang |
Lesley you will be amused to hear that folk are now asking me for Clicker Training lessons to cure gundog problems ! I make it very clear that I am not any kind of expert at clicker training yet still folk ask for help. I think the reason for that is that I am still a fairly down to earth gundog trainer and I don't make any big claims for C.T. (Clicker training) - or for O.C. (Operant conditioning ) or for B.W. (Bum walloping !"  ) A little bit of each and each in its place works fine for me. 
This summer I have now helped C.T. train a couple of labs, a couple of G.S.P.'s , a springer and a brittany. I never thought I'd see the day when I'd be doing that ! I think it has actually helped that I don't know all the big "in" words or phrases or letter abbreviations. I just try to explain things in plain ordinary English and sometimes use Buck as a demo dog. I think using C.T. or O.C. "speak" actually alienates many gundog people who might otherwise try to learn a bit more about the "newer" methods.
What is it they say about old dogs and new tricks ? I',m still making attempts to learn.
Bill T. |
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| Greyghost |
Awww well done Bill. I clicked just as Buddy did something else at classes last weekend and I still had to reward him. It's all about timing and even then it's possible to miss that split second. Must admit the jargon does put people off sometimes.
Trouble is if I do something aversive I feel sooooo guilty. I threw the lead at Bud the other day and that's the last thing he needs when he is playing 'keepers' on his return. Training can be soooooo frustrating at times. |
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| DesO'Neile |
It is amazing how a thoughtfully posed photograph and nice punctuation and English suggest the author knows what they are talking about.
THE ONE item that leaps from the article is the assertion that dominance doesn't take place in wolf packs in the wild. Now anything filmed of wolves in release schemes isn't truly wild but there are hours of film shown annually on Discovery of the matriarcial society that is a wolf pack and the effects it has on the members of the pack. Only the alpha female, and a few higher ups, come into season and there must also be countless minutes of film of subordinate wolves having to wait to feed last etc. As for clicker training I have thrown down this gauntlet many times, but if somebody will lay down the clicker training regieme that will turn a hard going pointer at a half a mile when they hit a deer line I'll be an instant convert. I do dominance with a small "d". My dogs aren't allowed to put their paws up on me. If they want to come and hang out they put them on the wall or fence or anyboby else who's mug enough to let them but they don't do it on me. And bye the bye, dog training never was and never will be a science. Its an art form. The only reason the fence post doesn't do serious damage to his rectum is that he spends that much time jumping from one side of the fence to the other he never actually sits on the fence. |
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| BenB |
well phrased Des. A lot of that rings true. All dogs are didferent and need different methods. | ||
| Louilou |
Great post, Les. I've tried to stick with positive reward training as I'm a newbie to everything. But have to admit I would so love to find a good trainer within easy reach of where I live. I've no idea if Grey is still a monkey because he's just hard work and would be for anyone, or if it is because I'm too passive in my positive training. Perhaps a combination of both. If I had someone to work with and who wouldn't come up with some gump, chance would be a fine thing.
Last trainer I 'interviewed' was supposed to be a clicker trainer (not gundog) and first thing they did when they came in to the house was say 'no touch, no eye contact, no speak' just like the little Cesar Milan man. Then she said that dogs are domesticated wolves. So that was a none starter for one. It's not what I thought I was getting. I've no idea how I would punish Grey in a traditional sense. I wouldn't know where to start. He seems tough as old boots if you bellow at him and even giving him a smacked bum really doesn't do much. He's not a sensitive fellow. But I have wondered how he would be in the hands of someone much more experienced than me. |
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| windem bang |
Lou, I very rarely ever watch Cesar Milan so I don't know his methods. I must be doing things all wrong because I continually give my dogs eye contact ,voice contact and I don't just touch them - I cuddle them !
I'm sorry to say that up to present I don't think much of the dog whisperers I have come into contact with. Those kinds of methods must work or they wouldn't be in use but I've kept and trained dogs for a fair while now and so far the dogs have been reasonably sane individuals even although I do everything wrong. Bill T. |
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| Louilou |
Hey wullie, (btw like the name. Is it new?)
I don't reckon you do much that is wrong! |
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| windem bang |
Lou it is a sign that you are fast approaching forty when you forget your own name !
I began to call myself Wullie on another forum with a lot of guys called Bill on it. I posted in to argue with one stupid git of that name and it turned out to be me that I'd disagreed with ! 
I changed my name to Wullie but I do get mixed up as to which forum I'm on occasionally . 
Bill T. (I double checked that bit ! )
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| Greyghost |
Lou, I think some people just have that commanding attitude. My dogs and others were like putty in Rory's hands.
I do watch Cesar Milan sometimes and like some things he does but not all. Bill you would have loved the episode when he used the e-collar on a dog who approached snakes in the US. They made the dog think that it was the snake giving out punishment every time the dog looked at it. It certainly changed my views in a life or death situation like that. Ooops did I say that 
Mind if a dog is taking the proverbial regularly I would definitely walk in the room with no touch, eye contact etc. In short I don't have a dog. When he/she is calm I would make contact, so I can see where that trainer was coming from with that one. I often tell visitors to just walk straight through them. |
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| Greyghost |
Des, clicker training has its uses but I doubt there is a strict regime that would help in that situation. I have a bit more of a grasp on clicker than you obviously but I don't think you understand the fundamental uses of it and until you either try it or see a proficient handler using it properly there aint no way you will be converted man
This is just a small snip from a training article I have read but it makes sense to me although I am not naive enough to believe that all theory can be put into practice by everybody, especially me .
Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits, however, if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts). Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it! Not always easy if you don't come across certain situations regularly enough to put in lots of repartitions. Hares are the bane of my life here in Lincs 
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| Louilou |
Well I like Wullie!
Les, I know what you mean about presence. I know I go to pieces often in the presence of trainers and I think I look like the silliest, weakest daftest girl with the out of control loony dog. But in a weird way, grey gets very silly and boistrous if there is some kind of active ignoring of him by a trainer. I can always bet he'll do some horrid rude jump up at a first visit of a trainer that is into rank dominance or alpha male stuff. When he wouldn't have done the same in a casual meeting. Weird? Or just me compensating and keeping him 4 paws on the ground if I'm allowed to monitor him? I am not good with Grey if I;m distracted. In a training environment I;m trying to take it all in and do my best. Whereas if I was on my own I can take my time and not feel rushed or embarrassed by failing, so this probably comes through in body language to the dog. I still like very little of CM though, but yes he does have prescence. He also gets bitten lots and his equipment is well dodgy IMO. That Illusion collar is like cheesewire held high on the neck. |
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| Greyghost |
I find you learn a lot more just observing other's mistakes. Unless you need the dog assessing it might be worth going on your own sometimes.
What cheesewire 
The other thing I don't agree with is the way he 'floods' the dogs rather than desensitise from a distance. He tends to go for the quick fix rather than the kinder longer winded route. |
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| windem bang |
There are more than one interesting subjects in this thread. I am now a fan of C.T. for up close and personal stuff but like Des I cannot see where a clicker is useful when your dog is 200 yards out from you - and still going !
I took a hell of a lot of kidding last shooting season and it has continued into this. The "funny" comments have come because I now have a clicker hanging around my neck at shoots ! What is the world coming to ? On the subject of clickers I am now using one bought from Pets at Home which is a whistle and clicker combined. I wanted a different whistle for Buck to the one I use for my spaniels . Buck is now beginning to respond to that whistle. The entire clicker/whistle cost just over £4 which is about £2 less than is being charged for an Acme 211 1/2 around here ! The whistle works just fine provided you don't want to walk around with a whistle hanging from your mouth !
I have now met a lady who trains c.t. up here. She is a " dogs for the deaf" trainer and is having a shot at training her very first gundog. We are arranging to meet in about a fortnights time and we can do a" fair swap." She will teach me more about clicker training and I will teach her a bit about gundog training . I think this arrangement will work I had a long talk with her and she ain't no fool living in cloud cuckoo land. She believes that the e-collar for example is just another tool in the box to be sensibly used for otherwise unstoppable dogs. The strange thing is that I have been searching for 1-2-1 clicker training or even class clicker training for some years now. The only person I met who took such classes couldn't let her own dog off lead in a public park - it wouldn't come back ! I didn't go to her lessons ! My new found clicker teacher lives less than 1/2 a mile from me ! She has lived there for donkeys years and has been trying to train her gundog locally but we just hadn't bumped into each other before ................Never thought I'd be going back into the classroom after reaching retirement age !
I have only seen a couple of the C.M. shows and I didn't see either the "cheesewire" training or the e-collar training shows. I would guess that the cheesewire method was to make the dog think that all restraint had been removed by removing the lead then catching the dog out with still attached cord or cheesewire ? I sometimes go on a U.S. gundog forum . Whether or not e-collar use is agreed with it is certainly a sensible thing to use when living in a country with rattlesnakes, skunks, bears , alligators and porcupines ! Aversion therapy could very easily make the difference between a live dog and a very dead one ! Bill T. |
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| Greyghost |
Definitely not. Too late then!! It's not a correction tool. Clicker training is done before you progress to that stage and it is phased out before you take them on a shoot. That is what proofing is all about but you cannot prepare for every situation, that would be almost impossible. Training for your dog to turn on a sixpence when recalled at 200 yards or a solid sit/stop whistle is about all you can hope to train for in that situation. (Unless you have a herd of running deer at the bottom of your garden to desensitise them to on a daily basis). The dog is then conditioned to turn not just trained to do it a few times and see how it does when it hits a flock of sheep or whatever. I really don't think some of you guys understand clicker properly. If you don't understand the principle you can hardly expect to use it and get good results. Not getting results usually ends up as bad press for CT. Bill, what are you using the clicker on an actual shoot for? |
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| windem bang |
Hi Les, I think you are underestimating my understanding of C.T.
The only remaining problem I had with Buck was that although he would do any kind of fancy present you asked for with dummies or with cold game , this present or delivery did not extend to fresh out of the sky game. I very thoroughly trained Buck a clickered delivery then because the only way I could give him practice on the real thing was actually at shoots I clicker trained his retrieves at shoots. If I went picking up every day it probably wouldn't take long for Buck to do a consistently good freshly shot game delivery. I can't give him enough retrieves on fresh shot game often enough to easily get a consistently good delivery.........he values his birds very highly and he also does not like other dogs around when he delivers a bird . He used to be the same with dummies but he was given sufficient retrieves to solve that problem. Thanks for your interest Les
Bill T. |
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| Greyghost |
Thanks Bill that's a lot clearer now and makes sense.
I wasn't necessarily referring to you btw regarding understanding the principles of CT.  That is not a criticism of anybody who does not have a grasp on the subject it's just that I am getting a bit frustrated with people challenging it against other forms of training without having the full facts or bothering to find out more about it's benefits for themselves.
I'm off before I dig a big hole for myself 
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| windem bang |
O.K. Leslie , no problem My last post got a bit condensed due to the arrival of my grand daughter and the departure of my grandson......
Kids ! Who'd have 'em ? It's all Dale's fault !!! 
I've been trying to help a man with a very promising G.S.P. pup which had a retrieve delivery problem. He'd tried quite a few of the usual ways of improving her retrieve but they hadn't worked. I suggested he should try C.T. ing the delivery part of the retrieve. I have talked him through it by P.M. from priming the clicker onwards. I have went for the dog targeting his hand . Apparently things are beginning to go well and she now places the retrieve very carefully into the target hand about 9 times out of 10 . On the tenth retrieve or somewhere among the ten retrieves she does drop the retrieve but he says that this is due to him fumbling the article (a tennis ball) The forum member says that once things have gone well for a while he will make a little film and post it. I think he meant onto another forum but I'll see if he would post it here too. I am looking forward to seeing this film clip myself for I.M.O. this bitch is working very well for her age in all other respects. Maybe "new wave" dog training methods aren't doomed to failure after all. If I can see the benefits of parts of C.T. work then others will too. I am already aware of a couple of old stagers like myself who are trying to use C.T. when having problems close in and personal with their dogs. I believe one of the biggest drawbacks to these methods becoming more popular is that people - especially the older generations like myself just cannot be bothered to learn the new language that these newer methods seem to require for the explanation of their use. Plain everyday language has been used by me to attempt to explain how to clicker train various bits of gundog work. Maybe I've just been very lucky but so far nobody has failed to make progress after very simple explanations. Sorry - that was a very long winded explanation !
Once more I would like to thank Josie and others on this forum for explaining C.T. to me . I do change the basics around a bit to suit gundog work but I at least know that what you click for is what you get !
Bill T. |
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