cressy
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Why........ can't I find a happy medium????
Mugi and Chase have both dropped off any interest in dummies since a) Mugi has worked on fresh game and b) Chase has started hunting.
So into the garden I went with trusty rabbit dummy and worked one dog off against the other. This is not really fair to Mugi as he hates other dogs near his dummy but I needed to spark Chase again.
So I asked both dogs to sit and threw the dummy, Mugi ran in but that was fine and keeping Chase sat by me he crept up and reluctantly dropped the dummy in my hand. Next he sat and Chase leapt around like a demon for the dummy. I threw it and didn't ask (or get) any control from Chase, he ran out, picked up, turned and realised Mugi was sat by me so he hurtled round the garden. I moved Mugi and popped him in a sit by the conservatory and went to sit myself on the bench. I called Chase in and he came and stood by me. I did a 5 min cuddle session with dummy in gob then took the dummy off him.
I repeated a retrieve for Mugi but pup was now leaping like a loon so I let Mugi take the dummy in the house where I took it from him.
One more retrieve for Chase where he did sit till told to go (just) but he hurtled off round the garden with dummy in gob. He did eventally sit for me and let me take the dummy.
I put the dummy away then when both dogs were wanting more. I think I need a few more sessions of manic dummy work to get them keen again before adding back some control.
I just need to find the point they are keen enough to work with the dummy but not to the point of the manic leaping I got from Chase today. Hey ho - life is certainly not dull!!!!!
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guy
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Sue - how often do you retrieve the dummy yourself?
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cressy
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At the moment about 50% of the time Guy.
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guy
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That knocks on the head my theory then 
Chase - i wonder if altering his diet affects his bounce? Some very hot dogs can be controlled by a modification of their diet - Des has posted about this somewhere.
Do they deserve a holiday from retrieving? It strikes me the dummy is not 'special' enough to them.
One final thought - something Bill pointed out to me with Topaz - I was not making the retrieves 'hard' enough. Sure enough he went for a memory around a corner like a little rocket when he had just refused a 10 yard seen on short grass
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johnhod
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If Chase insists on running around before returning to you perhaps you should just ignore him. rather than trying to get him to come to you turn away and keep turning away until he decides to come into you, then rather then making a big fuss calmly take the dummy and give him another retrieve. If he comes straight back with the dummy make a fuss of him, if he runs around ignore him again. It may take time and he may get fed up retrieving before he gets it right. if this happens give him an exercise you know he can (and will) do, praise him when he gets it right and finish for the session. Go back to retrieving at a later date. As Guy says a break from retrieving or making them more difficult are also worth trying
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cressy
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Taking your points in order Guy.
Chase definitely responds best to a natural diet and if he gets 'artificial' treats his behaviour goes wilder. He is currently also wearing a DAP collar 24/7 which I think is helping him. His overall behaviour is getting much more reliable, today we had a wander to the post box and I had classic heelwork with him paying me attention throughout.
They have just come back from a retrieve holiday and the dummy is definitely not interesting them - hence the bunny dummy. I will try to increase the difficulty and see what happens. I have to be careful with reward cos the balance of reward being good enough to bother or the reward being too distracting is a very fine line.
I will take them out to some decent ground on Wednesday in the light and peg one out a reasonable distance away from working the other to see how we get on.
John, a very fair point and something I am trying to remember to do, he was better with cold game and was happy to bring that to me but the dummy is either not worth picking up or a trophy  .
All their training is short bursts of familiar with a new exercise and nothing repeated too often, I try to always end on a positive note even if it is just a simple stay.
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johnhod
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Assuming they were retrieving birds, could you get a couple of wings, to replace the bunny fur?
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munstyman
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Hi Sue,
I'm going to take a slightly different line here than has already been posted, partly to give a different perspective and partly because I'm being mischievous  .
One of my bug bears is when people say that their dog won't pick dummies now that it has picked game! I've said it else where so I won't bore you with it again now.
This usually takes the form of `blinking' the retrieve in the first instance, your dogs are not doing that, rather than they are playing with the return.
To me this is not necessarily a bad thing so soon after the end of the shooting season. Young dogs and old need to be reminded that retrieving is fun ( especially if you have `serious hunters/retrievers of game') I tend to go back several steps in proper training and deliberately keep dummy training in a play orientated atmosphere when in close confinement, gardens, house etc. Then i would do a few `serious retrieves' on odd occasions when out and about, this allows me to nip any `bad' play habits in the bud.
Working one dog off against another can and does work, but I would be very careful as you can come unstuck very quickly. When one dog deliberately `teases' the other rather than gets its `boost' from working for and delivering the retrieve to you, this is the early sign that you should stop. The dogs may get more frustrated/excited about each others actions rather than learning and focusing on what you are trying to teach them  ( You may quickly get into `anything you can do badly I can do even worse'  )
On the whole your not doing too badly IMO having read your posts through out the season  Trust your instincts and have confidence in your ability, you do know more than you think
Peter
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windem bang
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Hi Sue, the one thing I would not do at present is to cease all retrieves. This is especially the case if you still give the dogs any chance of hunting at all. Hunting is what britts want to do, retrieving dummies is what you tell them to do. I would insist on the retrieve but you know your own character and that of your dogs better than I do. What would suit me may not suit you. I hate giving in, I always keep trying different things until I start to get what I want - like training the retrieve with Buck a few months ago using a fishing rod and reel to control him !  
If it were me in your position I would harden my heart and go all out to train the pup, Mugi would be a very secondary consideration.
I haven't seen what's happening but I probably would try making the retrieves much more interesting by doing longer and longer memory retrieves. Chase would shed some of his excess energy just running the distances rather than shedding it by running circles around you.
You have always said Sue that Chase always comes to you when you call him. If he is not bringing a retrieve to you he is disobeying the recall command. A retrieve is a recall with something in the dogs mouth.
If Chase does drop a dummy at a distance from you, does he then instantly return to your call or does he still bugger about ?
Bill T.
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cressy
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Hi Bill, if he drops the retrieve (which is is very likely to do) he will come straight in to me. If he has the retrieve in his gob then he comes in and dances around me so I can't take it - there is certainly no present!!!!
Mugi is getting very little training now, just enough to keep him entertained and often he will absent himself for a little self - amusement while I am working with Chase, that is fine cos he doesn't stray far.
I have only just come back to retrieves after they had totally lost interest so I will be continuing, just need to get the interest back while starting to get control in there. I need to balance the reward for getting the dummy back to me so am currently toying with the idea of Chase doing retrieves to earn his breakfast chicken wings!! No retrieve = hungry pup. The rec field behind me has been planted up with a wildlife area so some decent cover and if I get my timing right I should be out there before the daily dog walkers. I will up his difficulty to keep him keen too and report back in a week or so .
Thanks Peter for the vote of confidence, I guess cos I am new to this particular training field I don't really trust that I know enough to do the dogs justice.
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windem bang
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The retrieving will come back Sue. Even Buck who is a retrieving nutcase was a bit diffident about dummies a week or so ago. He now seems to be back to just about normal. I would guess that most dogs would much prefer game to dummies but they do get used to dummies again.
I kept the dummy retrieves going right through the shooting season to keep Buck in training and to keep him used to the idea of having an open mind as to what he will retrieve. You probably did the same but maybe not quite enough of it ?
Bill T.
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