wind direction

Hollie · wind direction

can some one please explain this for me! yesterday when doing a blind retrieve we didnt told any thing about wind direction.
we just sent the dogs in to retrieve the dummy, but could someone explain what is right?

or at the early stages do you not need to worry about the wind direction??

Greyghost

http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/sutra19024.php#19024

Take a look at the above link Holls. Not sure it will apply to beginners though or even apply at all in your situation Confused

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I was chatting to Hollie about wind direction this morning, it was like the blind leading the blind Confused

so hope to find some advice. Very Happy

I registered my Holly for the Gundog Club yesterday. Not sure she is the right dog to be doing it with with not much drive. But here goes.......

Hollie and Holly hmmm all very confusing. Rolling Eyes

weima

Have emailed you Hollie Wink

Hollie

Thank you claire! Very Happy

johnhod

As in most other things relating to gundog training I'm no expert on this subject. However, when retrieving, particularly on blinds, it gives the dog an advantage if you send it out so that it is downwind of the bird/dummy. That way it can use its scenting ability to locate whatever it is retrieving. If you were doing mostly seen and memory retrieves the subject probably didn't really need to be covered.

I'm sure someone with much more experince will be able to explain this better for you.

windem bang

On a blind retrieve, if the wind is coming from the side, send the dog just to the side of the retrieve that the scent will carry to.
Head wind - send the dog straight for it. Same for a tail wind but be ready to check the dog as it runs over the retrieve area.

If you don't know where the wind is coming from, send the dog straight and leave it to the dog to sort it out.

Some dogs will "banana" the outun to suit the wind, with this kind of dog, send it straight and let it do the adjusting to the wind.

Bill T.

Mike

When training for blind retrieves you want to send the dog down wind, you are trying to teach the dog to go in the direction sent not to head off hunting into the wind.

josie

I believe that, in training, you should always train the dog to run in a straight line, regardless of wind direction. Otherwise, if you repeatedly send the dog in one direction and then it scents the dummy and takes itself off line at the end of the retrieve, you are teaching your dog that your straight line doesn't eventually lead to the dummy. (I don't know if I'm explaining this v well but it's taken from US straight-line training philosophy.)

But in a test or trial, if you think you'll give the dog an advantage that one time, to send it slightly off line, then do it.

JMHO.

munstyman

Hi Hollie,
I can understand your confusion, as, if i didn't know better after reading the subsequent posts I would be totally confused Shocked

it may help if you break down the `to retrieve' into smaller parts.
For a blind retrieve you have to get the dog into the right area, this is where the training of the dog to go in a straight line comes in. You want to end up with the dog in the vicinity of the retrieve to allow it to find the retrieve either visually or more commonly by scent ( The dogs No.1 sense).
It is therefore important that in sending the dog ( its out run) that it ends up at the area of the blind retrieve, AND down wind of that retrieve in order for it to scent it Idea

Once you have the dog in the right area, the dog needs to be trained to search that area, switching on its nose if it hasn't already done so and `hunt' out the retrieve. The dog should, or can be trained or handled to work the area using the wind in a similar pattern to the hunting element only at a greatly reduced width.
As the dog becomes more experienced they use the wind often from you sending the dog out, hence what Bill was saying about a `banana line'. Providing this does not interfere with the dog getting to the right area it should not be discouraged. this is not the same as a dog hunting on its out run which is detrimental to overall retrieving, as it slows down the whole process, wasting time and energy.
It is important that you remember that the wind direction and strength may be different at the retrieve site than where you send the dog. In training you want to set things up that the dog does not fail, so make sure the conditions are checked out. On early blinds I watch for the dog to scent the dummy then give an immediate `Hi lost there' before the dog picks up the dummy, this will then be used as a trigger to let the dog know that it is in the right area and to start its search pattern on later more difficult blinds. ( `Hi lost' is my blind retrieve set up command, `there' becomes my search and hold that area command, others use a whistle command)
Remember you and your dog are a team, your job is to get the dog to the area so that the dog can use its abilities to find the retrieve. As a team each of you has to trust the other, you will both make mistakes, it takes time and experience to build a good team Cool

Peter

windem bang

By the sound of it Peter and I train for blinds in much the same manner. I use "hi lost" if I am unsure of exactly where the retrieve lies. In real shooting situations, work and trials, it is usually the case that I do NOT know EXACTLY where the game fell. These words to my dogs come to mean, " rake the hell out of this whole area."

If I am certain of the birds position , my command is "there!!!" to my dogs I try to make this mean, " hold tight to the immediate area and search around your feet."

I did field tests with labs before I ever entered a lab trial. I won a lot of tests with my lab bitch who was a very good marking and handling dog. But soon realised that much of this success was due to knowing to within a couple of feet where a dummy was lying whether the retrieve was a mark or a blind. That is not always the case in a "real life" situation. On a shooting day or in a trial the blind retrieve you have to send your dog for is often 20 feet one way or the other from "exactly" where you are told it is !!! I like to give my dogs the benefit of the wind to compensate for this.

If you do this deliberately in a TEST you are likely to be downmarked as the dog will not go in a straight line. If you do it out shooting or in a trial, you are iincreasing the dogs chances of scenting the bird with no further handling being needed. A less noisy and faster retrieve is often the result.

I don't care much for tests, I try to train dogs to go shooting with where all is not done under perfect conditions.

I.M.O. the American field trial "straight line concept" works very well in American trials for the simple reason that their trials are very similar to our tests. The handlers know exactly where the bird is and can send the dog straight to it. Much as I like some of the American training methods I think this one can work against our dogs on "real " shooting days.

That's why I'm always pleased to have a dog that seems to understand how best to find a retrieve on a side wind and will naturally run a "banana line." An experienced dog can become incredibly good at this and will come in again with the wind in its favour with little or no help from me.

I train pups to go out straight if I can then assess the pups natural way of doing things. If it's a banana liner I'm pleased and leave it alone to gain in experience. If it's not I eventually, at longer distances, send the dog to give it the wind in its favour.

Bill T.

Mike

Interesting observations as ever Bill. From my perspective straight lines have nothing to do with knowing exactly where the retrieve is and everything to do with getting the dog to the area of fall as quickly as possible so it can start hunting in roughly the right area as soon as possible. In your scenario of the bird being 20 foot either way of where you are told it is, a straight line dog can be sent 20 - 30 foot downwind of where you are told it is and will be in a position to wind it (as you point out above), a dog that doesn't hold a straight line MAY if your lucky wind it or it may run past it 20 feet upwind. When I talk about straight lines I am certainly not looking at them being pinsharp and will tolerate some "bananering", what I won't tolerate is a dog starting to hunt long before being told (which in my limited experience of working and testing HPRs happens much more often than a dog taking even a bannana line, let alone a straight one! BTW on I include my own dog in this, although he is improving)

BTW with bananering are you suggesting that the dog returns to the original line or carrys on drifting with the wind?

Hollie

Thank you Peter and Bill i think i understand a bit better now! and Claire i have ordered that book! Very Happy

Helen

For my springer, who is just used purely as a beating and picking up dog, I allow her to use the wind as she sees fit. She's got the nose and I send her in the general direction and she uses the wind. She's very experienced and does the job. If she is going a bit off line, I stop her and redirect her.

I also use this method, rightly or wrongly with my gwps (although one is only used for grouse counting). As long as she is listening to me and not buggering about, I am happy. She will get the job done and if there is a bird to pick, she will find it. I want a dog that I can work and that is what I strive for.

Helen

windem bang

Mike there are two kinds of banana line retrieve. If the dog is a natural at this I point the dog straight at the area of the blind knowing that the dog will make a banana line out to the side of the "fall" area, if the dog does not wind the retrieve for itself as it starts to run past that area, I shout "There!" the dog in response to this will swing into the wind and work towards the retrieve with the wind in its favour. It seems to be natural for dogs to do this.

On a marked retrieve, if a dog is a natural banana liner, you are unlikely to win many tests but trials are a different matter! In a test there are likely to be at least 2 - 4 dogs out of the number competing that are "to the inch" markers. They will go directly to the mark ,pick the dummy and head back with it - full marks. The banana liner will also mark the dummy but will run its banana line, know exactly where to swing in and come in on the wind to pick the dummy. The judge cannot give it full marks for those other dogs made the retrieve with no deviation. Neither the banana liner or the "mark to a sixpence" dogs needed to be handled but the straight to it dogs made it look neater. In a test they probably deserve to marked higher than the banana liner.

A trial is altogether different, if a dog goes for a mark and swings in on the wind to pick a bird with no command from the handler, no judge I've met yet would give that dog anything but full marks. The straight line dog would also get full marks but this puts it no higher than the banana liner.

But - and it's a big but, if the straight line dog is just a couple of feet out on its mark to the wrong side of the wind to scent the bird, it will miss it completely and need to be handled - marks are being lost ! Unless that dog is a fairly good handling dog, it may go a bit haywire out there and fail the retrieve altogether.

I am very pleased to have either type of dog but past experience has taught me that in trials, the banana liner is the best bet for a handling free retrieve.

Bill T.

josie

But Bill, I think there are maybe different things being talked about here...

With your banana-liner dog, when you are training, would you send it slightly downwind, so it would bananaline, or would you only do that in a trial? If you do that in training regularly, are you not training the dog that your line which you give it at heel doesn't actually lead directly to the retrieve? I train straight lines in training, meaning regardless of wind direction, but in a test or trial, I would send the dog downwind because doing that very infrequently isn't going to de-train straight lines.

windem bang

Josie I think I said in an earlier post in this thread that I send a natural banana liner straight at the retrieve? I never even try to teach dogs to banana, they either do or they dont. A natural dog at this will work it out for itself. I have had a lab pup that did this from a very early age. Her marking was unbelievably bad - but not on all retrieves. The wind direction made the difference. On side winds she would run off with the wind even if the retrieve was only 20 yards away, then she'd curve back in. For several months she did this often totally missing the dummy. Other keen triallers advised me she was no use, get rid of her. I felt she was trying to do something and I wanted to know what - I kept her.

With experience she taught herself when to swing back in and she would adjust her run to allow for the winds direction and strength. I don't think she ever won a single test but at trials she went from Novice to competing in the Retriever Championships before she was 18 months old. Trial judges knew what she was doing and the fact that I only very rarely ever had to handle her really impressed them. A few judges even went out of their way to talk to me after a trial, they could see the benefits of letting her "do her own thing."

I don't train for a banana line, I just gratefully accept it and don't try to make such a dog run straight.

Bill T.

Bareve

sako75

My dog does this too , it looks strange when she can easily see the dummy / bird on a marked retrieve but still insists on using the wind to home in on the object. It is far more noticeable on a side wind , I have seen her go as much as 20 yards off line and bend into the object using the wind. I have often wandered why she does this but it must just be her way of doing things - she's a strange one Laughing

Interesting thread !!!

Barry.

Helen S

Liesel has always done it too and I remember asking Bill about it a long while ago. She bananas to the right if running out with a backwind though. I will have to test this again in different winds when she's fully sound.

Helen S

windem bang

Sounds like some other lucky people have natural banana liners! Laughing

It pleases me to think that I have coined a new bit of gundog training terminology Very Happy

No return posts about Bills' banana please !!! Rolling Eyes

Bill T.

BritAnnie

Awww............................... and here was I poised ............................

flying fingers of fate at the ready.

By the way, if anyone fancies having a go with a Brittany there are three male pups down in Wales(two different breeders), and a younster looking for a new home (on Club website www.brittanyclub.co.uk) Pm me for info.
BA

Greyghost

windem bang

I'm getting to know you lot so I just thought I'd do a pre-emptive strike! Laughing

Bill T.