Won't point pheasants or grouse

JDEMPZ · Won't point pheasants or grouse

Hello there,
Now I know this forum is for HPRs but I need a bit of help with one of my Irish setters (and I am in search of a hpr at the mo!) so I hope no one minds. I got him when he was two and he had had nothing done with him, so I've had a tough year but he's coming round to my way of thinking at last, I've planted plenty of pigeons for him which he pointed well, but now he's copped on to them and roads straight in on top of them. Anyway my prob is that he doesnt point pheasants or grouse but he's excellent on snipe. I would have thought there would be a lot more scent of phessies and grouse, is it just lack of exposure? Any theories?

Kind Regards
John

Helen

What he only worked on snipe before?

I know someone who took on an irws to work on the grouse. She didn't point them for the first 4 counting seasons and then started to gradually slow down and then point. She had been in a kennel for most of her life and hadn't really had much exposure to anything.

OTOH, I have an english setter who the first time we took to the grouse, she pointed them.

Helen

Plover

Hi John

I am not sure if this will be much help or not. I guess it depends whether your dog knows about gun shot yet but Plover didn't used to point snipe but pointed everything else. Last year, I took her to an area where I knew there were snipe and as we walked through flushing snipe, I let off a shot after each one (I was actually trying to hit them but I have only just started shooting so am not very good - I eventually did get one). From then on, Plover started pointing snipe. I think it was the excitement of the gun shot and possible retrieve that made her much more careful with them. It may not be as effective with a breed that doesn't get the retrieve at the end but may be worth trying if your dog knows all about gun shot.

Jackie

JDEMPZ

Hi folks,
thanks for the feedback, my lad was in a kennel until I got him. He probably had a couple of outings and may have come across a snipe or two as they are the most common bird here.

He is very highly strung and he hasn't been shot over yet, I'm a bit nervous of introducing the gun to him as he is even wary of the starter pistol. I feel that if he stumbles across some grouse or pheasant and accidently flushes them he will begin to recognise their scent and the penny will eventually drop, what do ye reckon?

Regards

John

Helen

Sounds exactly like the IRWS I know. I would just expose him to the grouse and he "should" get the idea.

What does he do when he comes across pheasant and grouse?

Where did you get him from? (just interested)

Helen

JDEMPZ

He doesnt really react, doesnt even bother to check out the ground scent, its seems very strange. I bought him from a friend and he's from sheantullagh lines. He is extremely stylish and fast but thats not much comfort if hes not setting.

BritAnnie

DesO'Neile

In theory it is possible to teach any dog any task but once the dog is over twenty weeks old it becomes more difficult and may require more training sessions and more repetitions each time before it sinks in. You can't really teach a dog to point, all you can do is provide the opportunity to. A dog that will point snipe will point anything.............once he knows you want him to. The dog has to know that you want the bird and in a case like this the easiest way would be to shoot one, or two, for him.
Which brings us on to the shot. With pointers and setters, which usually aren't used to retrieve there must be a relevence to the shot. It is easier with H.P.R.'s as they get a retrieve, which they mostly enjoy, so the shot quickly becomes associated with something nice. Setters love to point and flush so if you wait until the dog has pointed the shot shouldn't be a problem. In the first couple of instances be very particular which birds you fire at. Try and wait until the bird is flying at a tangent to the dog so that you aren't firing in the direction of the dog which will obviously be the loudest place, in front of the gun. Even if the first few pheasants aren't pointed I would fancy that the dog will soon catch on if you drop one or two for him. November isn't that far away and I would be interested to know how you get on.

JDEMPZ

Alright Des,
that sounds like good advice. I'll try and knock a pheasant r two for him in Nov. I'll keep ye posted as to the progress. Thanks.

Helen

Good luck with him. I know my friends IRWS came sort of good after a couple of seasons grouse counting.

Helen

JDEMPZ

Ok Helen,

thanks for the help. Might try and get him over to Scotland for some counting next year. Will get back to ye later on in the season.

Regards
John

JDEMPZ

Well just an update, every time I came across a pheasant since then I brought my fella into the area, after a few flushes he started setting rock solid. Now I've been told to keep him away from pheasant as it will cause him to start dropping his head and follow the ground scent. I still haven't cracked the grouse problem, but we have only ever came across grouse three times, however the last time we came across a grouse he did show a lot more interest and stopped but he didn't set solid so hopefully all he needs is a bit more exposure, but grouse are fairly scarce down my way.
Now another dog I have will set any planted bird but will not set any wild birds is this again a matter of exposure?

DesO'Neile

Helen S

This is interesting. My dog has had the opportunity to point hares more than anything else. She is rock solid on a sitting hare even if it is under her nose and she will wait for me to cross a field to get to her and flush the hare. She then sits to whistle - not quite cracked the sit to flush yet!

My point is that I am now convinced that given enough opportunity to point pheasant she will also become more staunch. We have good access to a shoot but more often than not the cock pheasants creep off and make her track and she has not yet really learned how hard she can push without bumping the bird. She also needs birds shot over her.

Good luck with your Irish!

Helen S

DesO'Neile

Helen,
It is difficult to tell if q bird is moving when your dog comes upon it. If it is moving, then it can be difficult to pin but if it is stationary then your dog should be able to pin it. This is the essense of "Knowing the distance". Too far the bird will run, too close the bird will flush. Just right and the pair could stay there for hours.

Helen S

Des, you're absolutely right and Liesel and I are learning together how to handle this situation.

Helen S

sako75

At Di Arrowsmiths seminar that I attended a few weeks back she talked about a dog "dominating" the quarry whilst on point. The dog on point is fixated on the quarry and the quarry is pinned. Not sure if this has any relevance but the way I see it the dog should learn through experience what the optimum distance of the point is to achieve complete dominance over the quarry.

Any thoughts ??
Confused

Barry.

DesO'Neile

Barry,
Your comment is very relevant. There are two ways to teach it.
1# If you have access to a lot of game let the dog make it's mistake, making sure you don't admonish it too severely.
2# If you use a bird launcher make up your mind how close you want the dog to get to the bird. If say you decide on ten yards you trigger the bird if the dog gets within that distance and it hasn't pointed. Again if there is a mistake don't admonish too severely.
As with other things some dogs can square this away very quickly while others may never full master it.