| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Mike |
Your HPR choice...I've been asked a very thought provoking question on another forum, to cut a long story short I was basically asked if I want a Weimaraner or a Grey GSP. Now obviously my knee jerk reaction was to say I want a Weimaraner but I went off and printed off the US and UK breed standards for each (Weim, GSP and Vizsla) and TBH I was suprised at how similarly they were all described, which has made me ponder what actually makes a Weim a Weim, a GSP a GSP and a Vizsla a Vizsla? It's not just colour is it?Obviously all these dogs are shorthairs but the question could equally be asked of GLP vs. Large Munsterlander etc. surely the main difference between all these breeds is more substantial than just the colour? |
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| Helen |
I looked at this question last night but couldn't think of an answer. Having come back to it, I may have a bit of a ramble lol.
Breed standards don't make the dog. Yes, they describe what the dog looks like and go into their characteristics a little bit but these different breeds were bred to do slightly different things. They came from different areas and have different breeds behind them. A gwp isn't a hairy gsp, as different breeds have gone into them. I think what draws people to a certain breed foremost is the look and colour. That's what drew me to spinone to start off with. I then found they were too big and slow so looked further and found the gwp. Hope this is the response you were looking for and I've understood what you were trying to say. Helen |
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| Mike |
Rambling is fine 
I understand that they were all bred to do different things but is it wrong to want your chosen breed to be more succesful in the environment that they now compete, live and work in? Does the desire for success (thinking of competition here) allow breeders to change / improve the breeds characteristics to increase the likelyhood of success in local competition? or should they try to maintain some fictional ideal that is possibly out of date? Not expecting any definitive or authorative answers! Just curious about peoples opinions
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| Helen |
Part of me feels that is wrong but part of me feels why not. We all live totally different lives so why not. I think it goes back to beating again. That is all some people have available to work their dog so why not? It's their choice, even though I feel that it isn't the most suitable environment for an hpr.
By "local" are you meaning the terrain the competitions are run on? I personally don't see why they should try and maintain the fictional ideal if it is not suitable for the task they are wanting to work. The purist in me feels that is wrong but I honestly feel we have to move with the times. Very thought provoking questions Mike and I hope someone else has a go at answering them. Interesting to see other points of view. Helen [/quote] |
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| Mike |
By local that is pretty much what I meant, for example a hunter in Texas will have very different requirements for his Weimaraner than maybe a forester in Germany.
Must admit the purist in me also feels it isn't right somehow but couldn't really justify it! 
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| guy |
which came first - the dog or the standard? As i understand it the dog developed first and a standard was drawn up to refine what had been achieved to date. Standards change over the years - but what is driving that?
If more people want dogs that work on different terrain from the original then surely market forces will prevail - those dogs that work best will be bred from. The ultimate scenario is the ESS where a 'working' animal looks different from that which meets the standard - in most cases. Maintaining 'dual purpose' surely must be the goal if we are going to have 'breed standards'. Finally shape and colour is one thing - but what about personaity? For me that is the main thing that has me involved with my breed. |
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| josie |
If we don't move with the times and try to meet the needs we currently have, what happens (abstract, theoretical question)?
We end up with a breed which can't be used (successfully) for what we want to do. What then? We either change breeds, to a breed which can be used successfully for what we want to do. Or we resign ourselves to forever being (relatively) unsuccessful at whatever it is. |
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| chiendog |
This is a very interesting topic, and I have said my piece re: weims vs gsp's on another board and on my blog http://chiendog.blogspot.com/2006/06/different-in-what-way.html
I would just like to add a few more thoughts/comments to the discussion here. Please keep in mind that these are just my opinions. But they are opinions based on a lot of travel and a lot of interaction with breeders and breeds in almost every european country that developed breeds of HPR's.
The main visible, tangible differences are size/shape and colour. Other differences include things like pace and range while working but they are usually slight. A very substantial (and overlooked IMHO) difference is cultural. You see, I believe that we are drawn to certain breeds for a variety of reasons, some of them quite subtle. Exotic names can be appealing. Fanciful breed histories (usually pure myth) also make an impression. Note how often a royal connection is found (made up?) when tracing the origins of so many breeds. Telling the boys down at the local that you now have a Braque d'Auvergne, a breed that was brought back from the crusades by the Knigths Templar sounds a whole lot better than "I got a new dog from the pound". Breed reputation can go a long way to drawing certain people as well. Weims are known (rightly or wrongly) in some circles as being either "protective" or "agressive" depeding on your point of view. To some this is a good thing, to other it is not. And then there is nationalism and political influences. The French love their own native breeds...to a point. But many of the French are secret Anglophiles as well. So the number one breed of pointing dog in France (and Itlay and Spain for that matter) is the English Setter. Contrast that with England, were the majority of HPR breeds are German. Even the Brittany, a hugely popular breed almost everywhere in the world is barely on the radar in the UK...nevermind Picardy spaniels and Braques Francais. How much do you think this is due to shape/size/colour of the breed vs. a cultural divide? Further along this line is the effect of history. We must realize that German HPR's are well known in the US now mainly as a result of 100 thousand American soldiers being stationed there for the last 60 years. If there were that many troops stationed in France or Italy or Denmark for that matter, we would probably see more of the breeds from those countries.
I can agree with this to a point. Shape and colour are the most easily identified differences among breeds. They are also the most easily modified. In a single generation one can turn a smallish short haired brown dog into a large longhaired black one. But personality? That is something which is hugely variable from one dog to another... and much more unpredictable given that nuture has a strong roll in it. I am sure no two small, shorthaired brown dogs have exactly the same personality, even if they were clones. However, I do understand that on the whole, some breeds will be more layed back than others, some will be more protective than others, and some will be harder headed than others. All of them will have their fair share of crazies though.
Actually, they were all bred to do more or less the same thing, but with slightly different styles. Think of it as the same language with different accents. In Germany all of the HPR's are tested for the same abilities. Hunting, pointing, tracking, retrieving etc. They can all enter the same tests and many do. So a weim test may see a GSP or a GWP entered at the same time. They are all judged against the same work standard (with a very few exceptions). In France as well, field trials are open to "continental breeds". They all compete against one another using a more or less common standard (judges may give some weight to "style inherent in the breed" but most don't really do that). Now to say that some breeds may do better in certain climates or terrains may be accurate. Afterall, my shorthaired weims do not do as well in the cold and snow as my friend's Drahthaars. That is why we see the majority of longhaired breeds coming from more northerly areas of europe, while the shorthaired dogs tend to come from the south.
I don't think that it is so much about "allowing" change. It is rather an admition of the inevitability of change. The English I speak in Canada wasn't officially "allowed" to change, nor was the English you speak over there in the land of the Anglos and Saxons. But over the last 300 years they diverged due to a million factors. And so will our dog breeds. The original ideal of the breed is very often still valid in the country of origin. There is no need to modify much about many of the German breeds for example in Germany. They have what they need and like and simply tweek the breed from time to time. In America, the home of wheel re-invention, we tend to make more substantial changes, sometime to suit our needs and sometimes just for the hell of it. In the end, the healtiest breeds are those than can accept variations on the main theme...just like languages. Anyone still speak Latin around the house? |
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| josie |
PS - Also wanted to say that I reckon competition is incredibly important in selecting where the future of breeds go.
This is true of any sort of competition - when a breed is seen to be successful, against other breeds, others will want to run that breed in competitions. Therefore there will be a demand for pups in that breed, to be run in competition. Therefore the best of that breed will be bred, to produce such pups and the breed will be in a healthy state. The first step of this entire process though is "when a breed is seen to be successful". If a breed is never seen to be successful and no moves are made to make it so, then the reverse spiral will be true. I know that there is also a non-competing community of gundog owners, and it could be said they will have different priorities. However, it's also worth pointing out that the most popular HPR amongst non-competing gundog folk is (I believe) the GSP - just as the GSP is the most (numerically) successful at FTs. The most popular retriever amongst non-trialling folk is still the labrador, just as it's the most successful retriever in FTs. So, imo, what happens in competition has a huge impact on the breeds which are used overall, in the gundog community, and not just of interest to people who trial. The other thing to point out is that change is normal, it's a part of life. The breeds which we see around us now are very different from how these same breeds started out. Even with a breed standard, there are so many different interpretations of it that it's not possible to fix in stone what breeds look OR behave like. Change is always happening, in everything in life, and opposing it is like trying to light a cigarette in a gale force wind - futile - change IS life. But you can at least try to influence what direction the change happens in, even if you can't arrest it totally. Tis my 2 P worth, anyway.
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| chiendog |
Josie,
You make a very good point. I would like to add that the most popular breeds are popular because they are popular...I hope that makes sense. In other words, a certain momentum can be created simply by having large number of dogs around to be seen. After all, probably the single biggest influence on most people's breed of choice is other people who have that breed. If your friends and hunting partners have say GSP's, the chances that you eventually get one are much higher than you chosing a different breed. So it makes sense that if every body at every shoot has a Lab, then you will most likely get a lab. You've seen that they are successful, your friends have them, and chances are there is a pup available for you right down the road. And so the snowball grows. You breed your lab, you get your friends interested and you place pups with them. My wife and I imported the first Pont Audemer Spaniel to North America 4 years ago. Now there are three in Canada. Why? because two of my friends saw ours and figured they wanted one. Now, if there were a thousand Ponto's over here, the ball may get rolling a bit faster. I chose Weims after I saw one in the field one day. It was running with a GSP. Both were excellent dogs. I would have taken either. Unfortunately the GSP got lost that day. The Weim came back. That stuck with me. Naively, I thought that Weimaraners were better at not getting lost. And that was the sum total of my thinking into chosing "my" breed. |
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| Helen |
Josie, you say the most popular breed amongst non competing hpr folk is the gsp. Is this just your own experience or did you get that fact from somewhere.
You rarely see hpr's out on a shoot but I know a lot of keepers who have a gwp and there are a lot of deerstalkers who have a gwp. In my own experience, I have to say that I don't know anyone with a gsp who works it without competing.
and the other side of the coin is that if someone sees an out of control dog, they will stay away from that breed. Not so much in the more popular breeds like the springer, how many wild ones do you see. One of the shoots I go on, there is another gwp. It runs wild in the drives, picks up and drops birds all over the place. If you ask anyone on that shoot what they think of a gwp, they will all have negative responses. Helen |
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| tashap |
thats the problem on every shoot that I have been on there has been a problem lab or a springer that is out of control yet it is forgiven, if you see an hpr doing the same thing the whole breed is condemned. There are alot of people working very hard to get their dogs working on the shoots but alot are put off either by their own breed members who say that an HPR should not be in a beating line so can only pick up or by shoots having had a bad experience or worse hearing about a bad experience and writing a breed off.
I get sick of the nonsense I hear when someone who doesn't know my dog comes on and automatically poo poos my dog based on hearsay of her breed. So many people are working so hard to make sure that their dogs are given a decent chance and lots do work very well given the right opportunities its a pity to write the whole breed off based on the odd one or two or even just a lack of understanding of a breed. I sometimes think its a total lack of understanding about the breeds that give them a poor reputation people have gotten so used to labs and spaniel breeds they expect the same of the setters and HPR's 
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| josie |
Hi Helen - I think I got that from the BASC statistics they gave out recently, but I've just tried to find them and can't, oh well. | ||||||||
| scotty wong |
keep it up ladys and gentlemen this is a good discussion.i have heard bad reports of hprs in the beating line but have seen some working very well in deed.
scotty |
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| Claire |
I'm gonna say something, gawd knows why cos I don't really feel experienced enough yet 
I have always thought that one of the main problems with HPRs on shoots and specifically weimaraners as that is my breed, is the fact that they are/can be more complicated and challenging to train than a lab or a spaniel. A lot of people I have spoken to are actually scared off by the fact that the HPR does 3 jobs and they have admitted that they much prefer a more straight forward working dog like a lab that they can easily use as a picking up dog or a beating dog. We have had Harris in the beating line a couple of times and to be perfectly honest he was a pain in the @rse. He ranges too far out and we spent most of our time calling him back in. I refuse to put Whistle into the beating line because if she is good enough I would like to trial her and I feel the beating line could cause us problems if she goes on point and another dog steals her bird. I don't believe the GSP is the most popular working dog. I would say it is very popular to compete with but from what I hear and see there are many people who spend the whole year competing in FTs, GWTs and Spring Pointing tests but don't actually regularly attend a shoot. For me, a true working dog is one that regularly works on the local shoot, working for sometimes 6 - 8 hours be it in the beating line, picking up, grouse moors or whatever. A dog that has its 5 - 10 minutes of glory in a FT and does nothing else is not a true working dog in my very honest opinion. Like Helen I know people who regularly work their HPRs on a shoot and they tend to own a GWP, Weimaraner or Vizsla. I know from speaking to people on here that other HPR breeds are worked but the GSP doesn't spring to mind as being the most popular. On our shoot we are the only ones with HPRs and when we first started working Harris nearly 4 years ago we totally got the pi** taken out of us for having an HPR. Luckily he has proven to be a good worker and he has managed to change the views of many people who thought the weimaraner was cr@p 
Last week Gary attended a large shoot on one of the Duke of Northumberlands estates. Sadly I was in bed with a migraine so couldn't go but when he came back the first thing I asked him was were there any HPRs. Yip, there was only 1, owned and worked by the Duke of Northumberland himself and it was a GWP 
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| josie |
Claire, don't worry about thinking you don't have enough experience - everyone is entitled to an opinion. Frankly, I think we need more discussion on our forum, but the problem is everyone (ok, nearly everyone) is being all English and polite and un-outspoken about everything. Come on guys, spill your guts!!
Whether or not the GSP is the most popular HPR amongst non-competing people, I think that competitions (not just working competitions, but showing, agility, obedience etc) have an impact on what people buy - just look at how sales of whatever breed wins Crufts rise massively in the following year for another eg! |
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| Helen |
Going back to the beating comment. Was it me or brought it up? I can't remember? Anyway, horses for courses really. If someone wants to work their hpr on a beating line, I'm not going to complain, it's just not for me. Teal comes along on a shoot but she's not in the beating line. There is too much that can go wrong and it is hard work keeping her in like I would a spaniel. I have spaniels for that. Beating with hpr's is a whole different debate.
However, do we want an hpr to work like a spaniel because that's all we have access to? Some people may but there are a lot of lone hunters who don't. They want their hpr to range out and hunt and point game. Saves your legs if you don't have to do all the hunting lol. I have seen 4 gwp's and 3 weims on 5 different shoots I go on, oh, and a gwpxlab. I remember being in the back of a beaters wagon - when the duchess of northumberland was shooting and she had the gwp with her. There were comments about how awful gwp's were and how hard their mouths are etc etc. I stood up for them and then a young keeper piped up that he had one that was a good worker. It only takes one bad example of a not very common breed to put a negative thought into someone. Tikka (Teal's mother) had 9 pups. All but 1 went to working homes and only 2, may be trialled. Certainly no more than that. That leaves 6 working dogs out there who won't be in the "public" eye, but will be working. I think I may have rambled a bit too much there! Helen |
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| Helen |
I'm not convinced. Certainly not in the working world. Field trials are only generally attended by competitors. The majority of people who shoot and have gundogs, don't compete. They go out there shooting and want a dog. If they see a good dog in the field, they enquire and maybe get one. I think it's more word of mouth and experiences. Teal's littermate went to a keepers son. He found out about the breed from another keeper who had one and he liked the look of them. I spoke to him and he ended up with Teal's brother. He has never attended a field trial in his life. Just seen a dog working in the field. With Crufts, it's televised so you have "joe public" watching. They see a breed and think, that looks nice and get one. Helen |
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| josie |
"With Crufts, it's televised so you have "joe public" watching. They see a breed and think, that looks nice and get one."
I don't think this is any different for gundogs though - the only difference is that instead of people seeing the breed and thinking "that's nice" just because of the dog's looks, they look at the way the dog works instead/as well and think "that's nice" too. Like Craig said, I think there's a lot of people getting dogs because their best mate has that breed/it sounds a bit posh and they want something a bit different which is still a gundog - or the opposite and they're a traditionalist and want what's traditional - fashion isn't just about what things look like - breeds can be in vogue on the shooting field too. It might not be broadcast on mainstream TV but there are lots of people who attend shoots, and dogs often are taken to more than one shoot - that's a lot of people seeing dogs working. Anyway, I'm rambling now, but I think my point is that there's not so much difference between the way it works in showing and in other forms of competition, except people are looking for/at different characteristics. Human nature and keeping up with the Joneses and all that jazz. The GSP is the most popular HPR according to KC stats - now I know that includes lots in show homes and pet homes - but I also seem to remember reading that it was the most popular HPR breed owned by BASC members - which are not only people who compete but also mostly people who work their dogs. Anyway, I guess we're never going to get a definitive answer on this one, because any shoots we have experience of are just anecdotal and not evidence of anything across the UK. There might also be regional differences too, who knows. I think the more interesting question is the one Mike posed - if you are finding a breed doesn't meet your needs, do you change it? Are you then changing the breed and is that ok? |
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| tashap |
breeds have to grow... or they die out with lack of purpose and you'd be hard pushed to keep them static even in look because of the changes in each generation. Thats why most of the breed standards have gradually changed over time - with weimaraners one change was the height, cocker spaniels the breed has changed altogether and is no longer recognisable as the same breed if you put a photo of a working and show dog together they are nothing alike.
I personally think that the working and show bred cockers should be formally recognised in the breed standard for what they are, the working dogs haven't changed much but the show dogs have dramatically if you look at photographic evidence. The show dogs are also pretty dumbed down to suit the show ring a far cry from what you need in the shooting field. Do you change them to suit your purpose?? I think you do that with every dog that you buy, there just isn't enough work that the dogs were bred for available, different for the spaniel and labs but HPRs?? We just don't have the large ranging forests or open ground with suitable access to them and enough single or small group hunters to go around and even if we did would we all get those opportunities??? I have used the beating line as a stepping stone for my HPR she has learnt her trade so to speak, she knows how to find a bird, how to hunt her ground, to point and flush and to retrieve with all the madness that happens in a beating line, her obedience is good because it has had to be even if it has been much harder work at times. However this has always been done in combination with individual work if left just to the beating line I can see where problems can occur. What it has offered is other opportunities, tracking for wounded deer, duck and goose flighting, grouse counting, rough shooting and access to people that can offer advice, help and experiences etc For someone who doesn't own a gun and doesn't want to how else will you get these opportunities if you are not from a typical hunting family??? No one is going to allow a novice picking up dog on their shoot especially not from one of the minority breeds, most shoots are based on who you know and word of mouth, much as we like to believe this is an easy sport to get into it really isn't that simple - Nobs is helping open the doors, competing helps but is no guarantee of access to shooting experience. My dad used to hunt but when I got shot all of that was firmly put away and the subject has not been broached in nearly 25 years so if I didn't use the beating line to get my working knowledge I'd be pretty hard pushed especially as a woman so from that perspective both my dog and I have benefitted. If you have access to something other than the beating line then fair enough but I want a dog that is an all rounder one that will do as many of the tasks that I need it to do as I can. Some breeds are more of an alrounder than HPRs Spaniels and labs for example but do they offer the same challenge??? I am in this for the challenge my dog brings not for the challenge of actually shooting a bird, if my needs were from the other perspective needing a dog do help me with my shooting prehaps I wouldn't have an HPR. |
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| scotty wong |
ok i dont really know a lot about hprs but i want a dog that can do everything i do! a bit of rough shooting as well as beating and some picking up.
i know they are not i deal for all of them but that is what the breeds were created for was'nt it? to do most things well and some very well! then i 'm sure the shape and style/looks of them were tweeked here and there in personal preference for hot or cold for a more noble look etc. i personally got a interested as saw a greatlooking dog(a gsp) years ago,i never knew what it was(i didnt think it was a pedigree) untill i started to shoot again 6 or 7 years ago when i saw one working in the beating line .i was given the advice by the older types that i should have a lab and a springer as i wanted the best of both worlds.i think that is somtimes why there are so many labs etc,new people ask the advice of the more mature members of shoots as they know little of the world of dogs and new a "experts "veiw. scotty |
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| Helen |
I had typed a long reply but my computer froze so I'm going to condense what I said.
Josie, you originally said that competitions are the place where people see breeds which is what I disagreed with. In your reply to me, you said that people see breeds on shoots, which I agree with. I think the majority of people who work gundogs, don't compete. They just go out there, and work their dogs for their own benefit. Tasha, I agree with you about beating if that's all there is to do. It's getting people out into the countryside doing something with their dog. I just think that people need to be aware what their breed was originally bred for and realise that it may be harder to train for the beating line. Maybe I am coming from it from a different angle as I have spaniels for beating and do have work for my gwp's. I do the grouse counts, and will be shooting grouse over Teal, as well as other bits of rough shooting. Maybe if I only had the one breed or dog, I would try harder. I don't know as I'm not in that situation but if someone came to me asking which breed was the best breed for a beating line, I would say spaniel. Josie, the most popular hpr thing. Did you read about it in the BASC magazine? There is something in this weeks shooting times about the basc gundog survey and it does say that gsp's are the top hpr. They surveyed 3000 I think and I'm not sure how big a percentage responded. I think whatever breed you have, it's fantastic that so many are going out there and working. I said earlier that maybe we do need to change the breeds slightly due to the work that is available in this country. However, I would still want my hpr to be able to hunt hard, fast and a large area. Helen - going to copy this before I click submit in case it goes again! |
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| josie |
Helen - I didn't say (mean?) that competitions are where people _see_ breeds, but that the breeds which are successful in competitions _influence_ which breeds people get, both to compete and to work with. I mean - somehow it filters down and influences people who aren't competing. Of course all this is just theory as we can't prove that GSPs are the most popular amongst people who just work their dogs.
Yes, the BASC survey thing was what I read - I don't remember where I read it, perhaps it was online somewhere. |
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| Helen |
That is the bit I disagree with. I feel that competitions don't have any influence on the breeds the ordinary shooting man would choose. I would say that the biggest influence is friends, family, acquintances.
I read back the thread and you did mention the BASC survey - sorry. I was in a rush to get my reply typed in case it froze again lol. Helen |
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| chiendog |
I agree that the single biggest influence on breed choice is very often friends, family and hunting companions.
Howerever I disagree with this:
I cannot speak for the scene in the UK, but I would say that competitions have a huge influence in north america and directly result in many people choosing a certain breed (or for that matter, avoiding one). You see, competitions result in winners. Winners become champions. Those winners and champions are then seen in photos and advertisements in all the slick glossy gun dog mags, on tv shows etc etc. In otherwords, nothing succeeds like success. Have a look in the back of any sporting type magazine to see what dogs are advertised. 99% of the studs will have CH or FTCH or some other titled earned in competition. Look again, and you will notice the same three or four breeds in most of the adverts. Those are the breeds that excell in competitions. So is it any wonder that Joe Shootingman very often choses to go with the most heavily advertised breed?, the breed that seems to be cleaning up in competition....and the breed that all his friends have? |
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| munstyman |
Great thread guys,
Are we talking what breeds `we as individuals' choose or why breeds are chosen by `others'? If it is the latter I refrain from comment , I'm afraid I'm no good at the human psychy only the canine variety Besides chiendog has put it better than I could 
I chose Large Munsterlanders when my sister who Breeds and shows Wolfhounds posed the question `what breed do you like?' and gave me a copy of the Observer book of dogs. I was already shooting at that point and had had Labs and Spaniels via the family Pets which I manage to train to a degree. I came upon the Large Munsterlander Photo and I knew that was the dog for me The more I researched them the more I liked them.......When I first got one was the only time I ever questioned my sanity,  as as most of you are aware a HPR is a big step up from your average Lab or Cocker, It was a steep learning curve for both of us, but one that I cannot regret.
The `look' of my dogs drew me in, the `character' of my dogs cemented the bond, the`ability' of my dogs makes them an asset for my sport and my life..life may never be easy with a hPR but it is always an adventure isn't that whats its all about
Peter p.s. As an interesting side note, when my dogs are having a bad day, the most derogative thing I call them is `Spaniels'  prefixed with an expletive
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| chiendog |
You are not far off actually. In French the Munsterlander can be refered to as the "Epagneul de Munster" (Munster Spaniel), just as the Drent Partridge Dog can be called the "Epagneul de Drent". Of course "Epagneul" in French refers to spaniel breeds that point. In French if you want to refer to a flushing spaniel like a Springer for instance you say Spreen-gair Span-yell with the thickest inspecter Clouseau accent you can muster. |
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| tashap |
Have to say everyone that I know locally who shoots or works a dog didn't buy it because of the breed being shown or competed they brought it because they saw one working or a friend said they'd seen a good one which is why we get so many cross breeds here.
The favorite at the moment is a lakeland terrier cross bedlington mainly for pest control everyone at college seems to be either getting one or has one but the fad changes nearly every year with another cross that is popular. On our college shoot this year we had two crossed lurchers one that was a spaniel/lab/lurcher cross and one that was an australia cattle dog cross both worked well and did a good job. The one thing I have noticed is that they don't care if its got a registration more if its a good worker. |
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| MC |
I was the one who brought up the question "do you want a Weimaraner or a grey GSP?"
And I believe this relates to any breed, do you want such & such a breed or do you want the phenotype of a dog but it to behave like another breed? Sure, majority of the HPR breeds were developed to do much the same type of work, that's why many are of similar build, but they have a history..a heritage to be proud of. I'm proud of the heritage of my GSP (even though it isn't a tested DK) and I'm proud of the heritage of my Vizsla. No one seems to be proud of their dogs beginnings anymore. It is like people want some sort of soup of dogs that they can chose a a colour and coat but it will range and have the same temperament characteristics of any other. The GSP was bred to be the faster and more the bird dog of the German breeds. The Weimaraner more the tracking dog and forest work dog. The Vizsla also more a bird dog but less independant than GSP. Why should a Spinone for instance be denigrated because it lacks the style and speed of the GSP or Vizsla. Why should the Weimaraner be expected to perform in the same manner as a GSP. Why shouldn't the GSP perform in the same manner as a Weimaraner? There are differences in breed characteristics of temperament and manner of hunting that to many are treasured as what makes up the breed other than colour and coat. In one country in particular you have gundogs that barely resemble their own breed anymore. Is this a good thing, some say here if the dog needs to change to fit your work requirements it is good. I think this is terrible! Most of our HPR's are quite adaptable to hunting different terrain, they work in many countries but to obliterate a breed type in search of winning or just plain ignorance is wrong. Very wrong. I've had GSP for over 30 years and I am proud they are what they are. I have owned a Vizsla for 13 months and I am proud he is a Vizsla. I do not want my Vizsla to be a GSP, and he is not. |
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| Mike |
Not saying I agree with you 100% MC but very well put. | ||||||||
| MC |
Oh thanks Mike. I was in a hurry at cuppa tea time at work so you can insert all the ???? I missed putting in
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| Helen |
Chiendog, I agree when it comes to spaniels and labs, but you look in the back of one of the shooting magazines here and most of the adverts for hpr's will say, parents working dogs, there is very rarely any mention of ftch. Another area where people may see a breed and maybe choose that breed are books. I don't think all of those are written by competitors?
Very will said MC and the purist in be totally agrees with you. I do see exactly where you are coming from but, a very tiny but, we are an ever changing society. If there isn't the work out their for our breeds, should they disappear, or should they do a slightly different job? In the great scheme of things, does it matter? I love watching my dogs working, be it the spaniels, pointers or hpr's. I'm looking forward to seeing my setter work on the grouse in spring. The absolute joy of watching their instincts kick in and no matter how many times I see a dog go on point, I get as same a thrill as I have always done. If someone said to me, I'm going to breed out the pointing of hpr's, I would be horrified but the subtle changes that people are making, does it matter? Helen |
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| Claire |
MC - my understanding of the vizsla was that it was originally bred for fur, hence the fact its tail is traditionally docked a longer length than other HPRs as it was not originally required to go into dense undergrowth unlike other HPRs.
If you look at what your breed was originally bred for I think you might find that we have changed them already. How many weimaraners do you know that still hunt down wild boar ? Not a gundog but how many dalmations do you see being used as a form of pest control or running behind carriages. So I think we have all changed our breeds to suit our lifestyles anyway. I think as long as we don't change the breed so much that it has none of its original instinct left then its not such a bad thing. Harris doesn't do much rough shooting, probably only a few times a year, but he does still hunt and point when on a walk. On our shoot he is used as a picking up dog, effectively a labs job, is that so bad ? Someone said to me once that it was a shame On our shoot he may not be doing the full HPR role unless its a rough day but he is still using his hunting instinct and retrieving skills. He is the dog that is sent for all the runners, particularly the difficult ones and this is where he really has to hunt. I don't think its a shame he is used in this way and its a lot more than some weimars get to do
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| chiendog |
As I mentioned, the history and heritage of a breed can have big influence on why many people choose "their" breed (even if much of what they believe to be that heritage is not quite accurate). However, I believe that we should strike a balance between respect for that heritage and handcuffing ourselves to it. Sure I think it is cool that one of my dogs comes from a line tracing back to a German nobleman, and that the other was born about a mile from the D-Day beaches. But I don't live and hunt in Germany nor France. I live and hunt in Canada. We have no boar, we don't have many foxes (coyotes get most of em) and I don't hunt in large social groups. MC, I see you are from New Zealand. I take it your native language is English. You are likely from English stock as well. You have every right to be proud of your heritage (I am. My mother is Icelandic, my father Ukrainian yet I speak niether of those languages...I speak English, French and Italian..go figure...). But tell me, how rigidly has the English language stuck to its heritage on your island? Has it not evolved at all over the years? Why does it sound different to my ears than what the Queen speaks? You mention your GSP; a fine animal I am sure. Yet you also mention that is it not a tested DK. I am sure there are those, especially in Germany, that would tell you that the single most important thing in the breed's entire heritage and history is the testing system that developed and maintained the breed. Yet for whatever reason, that part of the heritage does not apply to your dog. In fact, as far as the German breed club is concerned, your dog could be considered a non-gsp. I know that the ex president and breed warden of the Weimaraner club once said "it isn't a weimaraner until I say it is a Weimaraner (ie: until it has passed the tests)" In his eyes, my dogs are not Weimaraners. For him, when we chose to opt out of the testing system, we opted out of the most significant part of the breed's heritage. I'm not trying to bust your chops MC, you make an excellent point and I applaud your devotion to the various breeds you have. And I agree that the heritage of a breed is important. It is a great source of enjoyment and inspiration for owners of any breed. But I also believe that we should look at it as a general guideline rather than as a strict commandment handed down to us from some flaming bush. |
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| DesO'Neile |
This thread does meander a bit but there are several statements made that I can't completely agree with or understand.
Mike effectively said that they are all bred to do different things. Mike, If you mean different breeds of dogs were bred to do different things I agree. If you mean groups of dogs, and HPR's are a group, I can't agree. As far as I am concerned all HPR's were bred to do the same range of tasks. chiendog, What exactly is your comment about popular breeds supposed to mean? There reason that Labradors are successful and numerous is that they are good at what they do. The breed was created to do a job in the field and if you want a dog to simply retrieve the Lab is the tool. They are extremely easy on the eye and really set off the back of a Discovery in Sainsbury's car park. To add to all that you can leave your kids with one and fully expect your children to reach their majority in one piece. If the Lab were deficient in any of these it wouldn't be so numerous. Some breeds are only good at sitting on their owner’s lap and having their coat combed but they have to be good at something otherwise they wouldn't exist. At least one person asked “ Which came first, the dog or the breed standard?” If you mean the written down version, probably the dog. If you mean the idea in the mind of the person or persons who created the breed definitely the Standard. History suggests that the specifications for HPR’s were carefully planned and created in advance of the dog. It might have needed a bit of tongue of bat and eye of newt to get there but they knew what they wanted before they started. HPR’s didn’t evolve, they were created. In a way the HPR is an anachronism, something from another age. Generally we don’t have access to the ground that was available even thirty years ago, especially in Ireland, believe it or not. Just like all the endangered species in the rain forest, shrinking habitat puts pressure on them. I don’t know that trying to diversify into other tasks is necessarily the way forward, as you will be asking the dogs to work in areas where there are specialists that are perceived as being better. If the founding fathers had wanted a dog to beat, as we now know it, they would probably and invented the Spaniel, a retriever, a Lab with a rougher coat etc. If I wasn’t involved in competing in Pointer & Setter trials I would have HPR’s. I have access to the sort of ground in which I believe they excel. Having said that when I was shooting in an estate last season I obtained two spaniels, I wouldn’t have dreamt in getting an HPR for there. |
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| chiendog |
All dog breeds were created by man....except wild dogs, wolves etc. But I understand what you are saying. Some breeds came about after someone(s) sat down and said "right. let's have a dog that does this this and this and looks like this" The best example of that is Eduard Korthal's Griffon and Baron Z' Pudelpointer. However, going down the list of the various HPR's we see that not all were created in this way. Many simply evolved over years in a specific area with no "master plan" in place before hand. When standards were drawn up, the dogs were already there. A few at first evolved, then more or less disappeared and were (or are being) re-created. Let's have a look: German Long Haired Pointer : created out of coat colour dispute with Munsterlander Large Munsterlander: see above. Proto type of both probably around for a long time before standard. Small Munsterlander: see above Pudelpointer : clearly the vision of one man...now being re-created in Germany by crosses of Pointer to Poodle (see http://www.pp-zuchtversuch.de/html/generationen.html Deutsch Stichelhaar (German roughhaired pointer) Been around for a long time, evolved. Weimaraner (shorthaired and longhaired) Evolved GSP/Deutsch Kurzhaar (some would argue that they are two different breeds) Created or evloved could go either way I suppose. German Wire Haired Pointer/Deutsch-Drahthaar (some would argue that they are two different breeds) Created Czech Republic: Cesky Fousek: evolved Italy: Spinone : evolved Bracco Italiano : evolved France: Brittany (Epagneul Breton or American Brittany) : evolved Picardy Spaniel : evolved Blue Picardy Spaniel : evolved (or was there a specific effort to cross Picardy's with Blue Belton's?) Pont Audemer Spaniel : evolved French Spaniel : evolved St. Ususge Spaniel : evolved, then lost, now re-created Larzac Spaniel (extinct?) : evolved Braque d'Auvergne : evolved Braque Francais (Large or Gascony type and Small or Pyrenees type) : evolved Braque du Burbonnais evolved, then lost, now re-created Braque St-Germain according to some: created accoring to others evolved Braque de l'Ariege evolved, then lost, now re-created Braque Dupuis (extinct) created Korthals Griffon (wirehaired pointing griffon) * created * developed in Germany and France by a Dutchman, the breed's official home is now France) Portugal: Portuguese Pointer (Perdiguero Portugueso) :evolved Hungary: Vizsla :evolved Wirehaired Vizsla : created Slovakia Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer ( Slovensky Hrubosrsty Stavac (Ohar): created The Netherlands: Drent Partridge Dog :evolved Stabyhound* : evolved *may not really belong in FCI group 7 "pointing dogs". I have yet to find a single person/breeder that uses one as an HPR Denmark: Old Danish Pointer : created/evolved Hertha Pointer* created/evolved *not really an HPR breed. Considered to be a colour variant by some of the Pointer. Spain: Spanish Double-nosed Pointer (Pachon Navarro) : evolved Spanish Pointer (Perdiguero de Burgos) [url] evolved [/url] |
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| Mike |
Yes.
Broadly agree although but I am guessing you'd agree that each breed has a slightly different emphasis? Chiendog, Impressive list of breeds but scanning through it the distinction between evolved and created seems to be based on how "old" the breed is. Also some are listed as recreated, what do you mean by that? I figure it isn't Jurassic park type experiments, but are people attempting to breed dogs that look like dead breeds? |
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| tashap |
Thats interesting...
Wasn't the lab original bred for hunting wildfowl?? So its also changed its job in a way. Can't say the same of spaniels they were bred for hunting birds so are doing the same job they have always done. I am very proud of my breed and its heritage but would like to see the testing of their ability undertaken. Our standard is aimed at working ability but few in the show ring are ever worked those that are stand out. |
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| scotty wong |
Wasn't the lab original bred for hunting wildfowl?? So its also changed its job in a way. Can't say the same of spaniels they were bred for hunting birds so are doing the same job they have always done.
no it was breed to get fat and have no nose and to sit in a ring and get combed!!!......or was it for fisherman to fetch rope or somthing?
scotty |
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| josie |
The argument for preserving breeds could be continued back ad infinitum.
For example, isn't the labrador, as Tasha says, originally a wild-fowling dog which largely came from Newfies and evolved on the east coast of the US? In which case we could say that it's terrible that the labrador is now being used in the UK largely on land and for upland retrieving and not to the same degree for water work, which is its heritage and origin, tut tut. But no one says that.... Organisations like Guide Dogs, Hearing Dogs etc all have their own breeding programmes for labs and goldens and intentional X breeds. They obviously have picked out certain qualities which they feel would make a good service dog and are then deliberately breeding for these qualities. I would guess that these qualities are probably very different to what is needed in a wild-fowling dog. Perhaps this will one day lead to yet another strain of lab or golden - show goldens, working goldens and service goldens.... And why is that a bad thing? Mankind is just doing what they have always done - developing dog breeds to suit their own particular needs. Surely it is that living, active and dynamic tradition which is the "tradition" we should be perpetuating? The interaction between man and dog depends entirely on the dog continuing to be of use to man. Otherwise dogs will become some sort of museum-piece. If, for dogs to continue to be of use to man, that necessitates the breeds continuing to evolve, just as they have evolved to what they are now, then that is the living and dynamic process which we should be fostering. Our needs will always be changing. If they change and move on, and we keep our dog breeds cryogenically frozen, the 2 will diverge to the extent that they no longer meet. And then we will lose the fantastic close partnership which has always existed between dogs and man. |
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| chiendog |
Well I used my own sort of arbitrary definition for the words "create" and "evolve" but to be more specific, I would say that a breed could be considered "created" if we can put a name, place and date on a specific plan to create a breed. And that the plan actually resulted in that breed's existence and eventual acceptance by a recognized registry. For example, it is perfectly well known that Eduard Korthals set out to create a breed of dog in the late 1800's. He succeeded in his efforts and the breed eventually became known as the Wire haired pointing griffon or the Korthals Griffon). The same can be said for the Pudelpointer, envisioned by Baron v Zeidlitz and created, in the main, by him. Others can include the now extinct Braque Dupuis said to have been created by teh DuPuis brothers and the Griffon Boulet, created by M Boulet. The Drahthaar was created by crossing several existing breeds under the club moto: (more or less) "breed to whatever you wish but test the progeny and keep records" As for most of the other breeds, the standards for them were generally drawn up in an era when categorizing everything from plants to insects to type of people was in vogue. So when it came to dogs, people looked around and noticed that there were dogs of a similar type generally known in certain areas, usually for a very long time. Grey dogs in the Thurigian area around Weimar had been known for a while before they were ever called Weimaraners. In fact some sources tell of them being called "Hen-dogs" ie: bird dogs with no other specific breed name. The French breeds as well, to this day, carry the name of the area in which they evolved. I do not believe that anyone in Picardy sat down and said "today I will creat the Picardy Spaniel". Rather, when it eventually came time to classify breeds, someone piped up saying "my variety of the French Spaniel is of a different size and colour and has been that way in Picardy for a long time. I therefore declare it the Picardy Spaniel. And so on. Those, in my view are breeds that "evolved" and where named and standardized after they already existed. And in case we think that all the standardization is a thing of the past, consider the case of the St. Usuge Spaniel, an HPR breed from eastern France. Well known in the area near the town of St. Usuge for as long as anyone can remember, a standard was not drawn up for the breed until the 1980's and FCI acceptance only came in 2000. There are now a couple thousand of them in the world with clubs in France, Germany and the US.
A re-created breed is one that fell to a level of only a very few specimens left in the world at some time in the past (in some cases only 2 or 3 individuals left) but through the efforts of enthusiasts hoping to revive it has now been recreated as it were. The last Braque de L'Ariege to be registered in France was in the 1960's. In the 1980's a group of people with fond memories of the breed decided to see if there were any remnants of the breed still around in the Ariege region of France. Lo and behold, they actually found a few (4 or 5) still hunting in the mountains. From this small group they eventually reformed the club, added a dash of a related breed (Bracco Italiano) and "re-created" the breed. I am happy to say that this year marks a real turning point for the club with over 50 pups born and many making a mark in trials and tests. I have hunted with these dogs in France and here in Canada and I find it harder and harder each year to resist a pup. (you can see photos of the breed on my website www.craigkoshykphoto.ca and on the official club site at http://braquedelariege.free.fr/) Another breed which has seen a similar past is the Braque du Bourbonnais. The Pachon Navarro can be considered in this category as well. The Epagneul de Pont Audemer will be there very soon. My wife and I are personally involved in an effort to revive it. |
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| munstyman |
Just for you Des I thought I meander abit more
There are hundreds of breeds of dog, each has evolved, been created or manipulated by man to serve a purpose for their masters. They are constructed for their function, abilities are hightened or diminished, and they are grately effected by the local geography in which they were developed. Each dog is an individual amongst its breed, and each breed is an individual amongst its group, similarities and differences are always going to be made as it is human nature. Equally there will always be those who deride a breed, or purchase a breed, on the observations of an individual. 
I love my Munsties, but that does not mean for one second that I do not get that same buzz from watching any breed of dog working well and true to type. In the same breath I also like to see dogs working well to a function/terrain outside its type My only concern is with the breeding of dogs to perform a function outside its type and heritage, especially if a breed already exists to perform that function. ( To train a dog for a function lasts a lifetime, to breed for a function or  can effect generations) .
Just to really loose Des in the undergrowth , Why do some of us change breeds  Own different breeds at the same time Or stick to one breed
Peter |
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| MC |
Some changes are not subtle at all. You go look in the Nth American bird dog magazines and you will see winning dogs advertised that you have to look twice at to decide what breed they are. Isturning a dual purpose gundog into a pointer specialist subtle? Would turning a closer working Weimaraner with substance into a smaller finer dog that ran like the wind, skidded into points, and was so bred to air scent for birds it was no longer noted for trailing ability nor water retrieves be subtle enough? I have no idea what my heritage is, nor do I care. What a persons heritage is has nothing to do with dogs, development of or breeding of except that many Europeans seem to desire to retain the original characteristics of the breeds they developed. Sure they will use now and then a different breed, one that is in the make up of their breed, to bring in some trait they feel is showing as lacking. Sure they test their dogs and their breeding is based on their dogs abilities to do ALL the things they were developed for, regardless of what the owner hunts. And Chiendog I might point out that the VDD do not like us calling our NZ dogs German Wirehaired Pointers, they were upset and said we should call then Deutsch Drahthaar - even though we are not fully FCI nor test them. I was told bluntly that Deutsch Drahthaar is the breed name! I don't hunt for wild boar either, but in Europe they have problems with wild pigs. I saw a TV program a while ago about wild pigs spreading throughout Nth America. In UK there are books written on tracking wounded deer with dogs, are these writters just dreamers then? Is it so easy to say "I don't hunt or do this with my dog so why should I bother to check that that this aspect is retained in my breeding program?" Sounds like show only doesn't it
I don't stalk deer and I don't shoot many ducks these days. But I still lay drags for my dogs to check their ability to follow a track, and I spend quite a bit of time training water retrieves. One loves to retrieve but can't swim well. If she were to be bred it would be to a dog I knew was very good in water. I wouldn't say "what does it matter I don't hunt ducks anyway." Incidently we do have testing in NZ. www.nzvhdta.co.nz Had to adapt to what we are allowed to do with game, but I'm pretty sure that what we are checking for in the dogs abilities the tests will show it. Pointing ability is just one tiny part. And that is where hunting will go, and what will save it longer. The dogs ability to work AFTER the shot, finding and retrieving wounded game. Described as essential to ethical hunting. At least Nth America has NAVHDA, but that has become competitive over the years and the original founders have bowed out, now a group of people have got together to form another Assn that is more based on the original German testing. In fact I think there may be two new venues. Not only that, the NA Deutsch Kurzhaar club has a new "branch" set up in Canada to be stricter on breeding and selling of pups much like the Deutsch Drahthaar club in Nth America who don't seem to have much of a problem with the strict breeding regulations of the VDD. So even in the land of "lets improve it" there are people fighting to retain all the original attributes of the HPR breeds. I went to write - sorry for going on. But I'm not sorry at all. At times I think, am I the only one who believes in the whole package? The only one who thinks the breed founders did a brilliant job? But I talk to a few hunting friends, and those keen in our testing Assn and I'm not. Not at all. Thank goodness. Phew. |
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| MC |
The Hungarian Vizsla is pretty much a recreated breed. | ||||||||
| tashap |
how was that one recreated??? | ||||||||
| MC |
http://www.hungarianvizsla.co.hu/avizsla_en.html
I've found more than this but didn't save it to favorites so who knows where it is, but there were only at a guess a dozen purebred Vizsla left and using different gundog breeds with these few survivors breeding back and out and back the Vizsla was recreated to what was considered the same temperament, appearance and working abilities. Not just a couple people experimenting, but a concerted effort by the breed enthusiasts. |
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| josie |
"Would turning a closer working Weimaraner with substance into a smaller finer dog that ran like the wind, skidded into points, and was so bred to air scent for birds it was no longer noted for trailing ability nor water retrieves be subtle enough?"
Why are these things exclusive? I'd want a Weimaraner which can work close when in cover or in woodland, but widen out the search to a _decent_ range when on open ground. I'd want both. And a Weimaraner which can air scent for birds before the shot, but be able to put its nose down and track after the shot too. And a Weimaraner which can also swim well and is happy in the water. I do think that UK trials favour wider-ranging dogs. This means that the dogs which are successful tend to be those with a wider quartering pattern. I also think that it's really important for the future of our breed that Weims are seen to be out there, being trialled and being worked, and being successful when compared with other HPR breeds, both in trials and generally as a roughshooting dog. Otherwise their reputation will decline further. If, in order for this success to occur, breeders need to select for things which are not currently there in the breed (such as a wider range), then I strongly believe it's for the best. The alternative is the decline of the breed as a working gundog. I'd rather see the breed modified slightly than continue to exist as it is until it's not really considered a serious choice for someone wanting a working HPR.
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| chiendog |
Josie, that describes most of the good hunting Weimaraners that I have seen on both sides of the ocean.
MC, look again, because in the very same magazine are photos of dogs that are exactly like the dogs in the fatherland, are certified for breeding there and have succeeded in the tests run by the parent club. The strength of breeds like the GSP is the fact that you can find any type you want. If you prefer the little white rocket type, you can get one...cheap. If you prefer the traditional type, that too can be had. Other breeds, like the Drahthaar find strength in strident adherence to the testing program. Any dog that is not part of the club and program is simply not considered a Drahthaar. Great dogs, great people, traditional program open to anyone who wants to enter. If you don't want to enter, well there's always the GWP. I've been to events in North America where men in Cowboy hats and buck-skin chaps followed Weimanarers and GSP's on horseback on the bald prairies. And I have been to events in North America where men in lederhosen and German hats blew their hunting horns to signal the beginning and end of a day of testing Weimaraners and Drahthaars according to the German club rules. And I have been to events that were everything in between. I have concluded that it is all good. And absolutely useless trying to convince any one group of people that the other groups are right and they they are wrong. Oh, and no disrespect meant at all MC, but if you are in New Zealand, why would you give a hoot about what some american breeders are doing with their dogs a couple of oceans away? You seem to have excellent dogs that suit your needs perfectly. And I imagine that you know where to get more just like them. So why not wish those crazy Yanks good luck and appreciate that their dogs are doing job # 1 for them...putting a smile on their face. |
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| Helen |
Ok, how about take out the breeding aspect of it. What about the single owner who has no urges to breed but wants to work their dog? Does it matter they aren't going for the "whole" package? Is there really a big change from when these breeds were first "created"?
I do think that weims have a hard time of it, even before they get out into the field to show what they can do. They are seen as the "designer" breed by some. I agree with Josie here in that if doing a slightly different job gets this breed out there and showing what it can do, it's better than losing it completely to the show world. Helen |
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| tashap |
Well all I hope is that you are all entering your dogs in the game keepers gundog classes at crufts. One place that working people will be present are these rings. It would be nice to at least show that the breed has more to it than just as a designer dog in a tv advert.
I would like to see more people trialling their weimaraners but with the number of places available and the lack of training for these events it is going to be a difficult future. |
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| guy |
as well as examining the reasons why we have chosen a particular breed - I wonder if there is mileage in exploring 'what are the barriers to ownership' of these breeds? Members of this forum are after all a self selected bunch of highly motivated and partisan individuals - not representative of the majority I suspect. A deeper insight into why some don't want HPR's of one sort or another may in fact deepen our understanding of why we do. | ||||||||
| Helen |
why not just more weims working in the field? There are probably more people who would see a weim working on a shoot,, be it driven or walked up than at a trial, not to mention it wii be the people who are anti hpr's. Good point Guy
from my experience, it's seems to be their "crocadile jaws" and their agressiveness!! Helen |
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| guy |
We are the only HPR on a small shoot - so repeatedly come against the hunting dogs work with their noses to the ground argument. Interestingly there is a lady with a pair of spaniels of 'show' quality - they work close and are responsive to the whistle but they do not work with their noses but just cover the ground, they also don't seem to have the speed of ground cover that a 'working' spaniel has (maybe the way they are trained). The point I wish to make is that the Brittany is more welcome than they. There seems to be a groundswell wishing to 'prove' show dogs are not capable. There is an acceptance that an HPR is different but at least can be tolerated. | ||||||||
| Alkemist |
I picked Weims because I met one of them before the others - period. I do, however, have a thing for a lot of the hprs and I wouldn't say no to many of them, but I like spaniels and terriers too. In fact I like a lot of dogs, hehe basenjis etc you name it, but I always come back to my gundogs..........
I don't really care about the differences - most of which I think are relating to the areas they are from and the geography of those areas, I like most of em......... but I want them to be different, not the same, if you get what I mean. I do somethimes think about getting a different type of HPR just cos Weims have a bad name in some circles
I am now ducking for cover hehe Nina |
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| langhaar |
Why would you want a weimaraner which is after all the largest and heaviest of all German hunting breeds as a wide ranging dog when it was not bred or built for that purpose. Are you requiring an English type.
Would you aplaud me as a breeder of Longhairs for selling a dog as a breed which was suitable for the beating line? |
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| josie |
Can't answer the question about the beating line and GLPs, as I don't beat frequently and don't have enough knowledge of GLPs.
But to answer the question about the Weim, I just believe what I said before: Breeds which are seen to be successful in trials and also in a non-competitive working environment, are going to influence which breeds people decide to own in future, when they are looking for a working HPR. If Weimaraners are not seen to be competitive with other HPR breeds in trials and when working, they will not be chosen by those who want a working HPR in future - either for trials or as a good rough shooting choice. This will mean that the breed will further decline and be taken over exclusively by the show people. This would be a very sad state of affairs. The Weim is very popular in the show community, compared to other HPR breeds and the Weim, more than any other HPR, also appeals to the pet market and is very popular there as well. Which means that, besides the large numbers of show folk breeding, there are also masses of pet owners who buy and often do breed their Weims. So, we are in the situation where there are lots of people breeding pet Weims and lots of people breeding show Weims and these far, far, far out-number the folk breeding working Weims. If you combine all that with working folk choosing other breeds because they don't see the Weim to be successful in trials and in other types of shooting work, this all spells disaster for the Weim as a working breed in the UK. If, in order to break this cycle and for people to see Weims be more successful and so more desirable as a shooting companion, if it's necessary for breeders to breed for a wider range, and indeed other qualities, than I think that can be the only possible answer. I'd rather see that than the end of the Weim as a serious working gundog. |
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| langhaar |
So what are the reasons for the Weimaraner not being one of the successful HPR's in the shooting field? | ||||||||
| josie |
Well, my theory was that it's related to lack of trialling success, which is influencing the breeds of HPR people choose. And the reason for that, I think, is because UK trials favour wide-ranging breeds.
But perhaps that's wrong because Helen thinks that most people aren't interested in the results of competitions and that they are more likely to be influenced by the breeds which others choose, around them, and the breeds which they see and admire at work. That would mean that people are not seeing and admiring Weims at work as much as other breeds of HPR. Why is anyone's guess. |
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| Helen |
I wonder if weims aren't as popular, because they are seen as the "designer" hpr? They are incredibly popular in the "pet" home, maybe because of their flashy looks. I remember an old boss said to me that he would love a "grey ghost". When asked why, "oh, I like the colour". This is someone who never had dogs before.
Helen |
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| josie |
Is there anyone here who considered a Weim as a working dog, then decided against one, and why was that? | ||||||||
| langhaar |
Most HPR trialling grounds are those with open woodland and hedgerows so statistically breeds with a shorter working pattern are most favoured.Good dogs, whatever the breed, are capable of getting awards in trials.
Competent dogs in the shooting field will always get the work too. I did ask a Weim owner to do a season's picking up on a farmers shoot but I never repeated the offer. |
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| scotty wong |
well sort of ! i have liked them(and the other similar shaped hpr) for years but knew a few people that had them as pets but never heard of them as working dogs and presumed they had gone the way of the show labs ie lost all working ability, may be unless you have a good read and look around (instead of just thinking of going shooting getting a dog and off you go in 3 weeks flat like to many people do theses days) peoel dimiss tem straight away(i did but because of size not ability) scotty |
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| josie |
Do you mean you found them too large Scotty? And if so, did you find them too large for your house, or aesthetically, or did you think their size would be a negative thing in terms of working them?
The 5 shotover days I've done this season down south have all been in open fields and/or various cover crops. I did do one up north (staffs) which was in woodland. |
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| tashap |
have you done any other work besides shot over days?? | ||||||||
| josie |
Yes, we work a shoot ground most days of the week on pheasant with a smattering of partridge. This one is mostly woodland, but there are a couple of v large marshy fields in it too, which often have snipe in. | ||||||||
| chiendog |
Just a quick clarification: Depending on which standards you look at the Langhaar is actually the biggest of the German hunting breeds. The UK standard says: Langhaar Height at withers: dogs 60-70 cms (24-28 ins). Bitches 58-66 cms (23-26 ins). Weimaraner Height at withers: dogs: 61-69 cms (24-27 ins); bitches: 56-64 cms (22-25 ins). However, the FCI/German standard for the Weim is up to 70 cm's. Be that as it may, I have noticed a trend in Germany towards smaller Weims. They are still substantial beasts but a quick look at the studbooks I have here going back quite a few years clearly indicates a trend towards somewhat smaller dogs. Gone are the days of 70 cm (and bigger) dogs. The latest list of stud dogs I have is from 2005. It is actually only an update/addition to the larger list but it shows that of the 20 dogs on it, the average height is about 65 cms. The largest is 68, the smallest is 61 cms. I have never seen a really big (70cm) Langhaar. Until I rechecked the standard, I always thought of them as being smaller than weims, about the same size as Munsterlanders. The standard seems to indicate otherwise. What is your opinion langhaar of the modifications made to the breed in Holland and France? The ones I saw there were fantastic field workers able to compete and win against GSP's and Brittanies. They ran very fast and very wide. Do you believe that the Langhaar was "bred or built for that purpose"? |
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| langhaar |
I shan't quantify the discussion of which is the bigger breed.
What is your opinion langhaar of the modifications made to the breed in Holland and France? The ones I saw there were fantastic field workers able to compete and win against GSP's and Brittanies. They ran very fast and very wide. Do you believe that the Langhaar was "bred or built for that purpose"? The Langhaar was not bred as a "bird only " dog in the country of its origin. |
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| munstyman |
Ha, you can not say you did not ask for this
You weimy's seem to be whining alot about how your breed is moving away from good working stock, how trials do not suit your dogs and how the show and pet breeders ( by sheer numbers) are using market forces to move the dogs away from their `heritage'. All breeds have people who, for what ever reason, develope the breed into their personal interpretation of how that breed should look and behave, and for gundogs, which working abilities are nurtured and which are reduced. It is within each and everyone of us to choose which lines we support and which we do not If your realy concerned then get off your backsides and do something about it  ( I'm not realy being nasty). If it is a breed issue bring it to the attention of the breed clubs, go to AGM's make sure the breed clubs/societies have working commitments in their constitutions, and make sure you hold them to it. Get out their and support your FT. Secretaries, help find grounds to run trials/tests, generally put yourselves out and look further than the length of `your lead'
This is the point you should all take on board, and set as your goal
Things rarely go smoothly when working a dog, with HPR's the task we set ourselves is harder and more demanding than ever. A failure is only a failure if you learn nothing from it, and your dog will be better for tackling any type of ground and situation, that is a lesson for all of us
Peter |
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| langhaar |
Well said Peter, much better than the garbage you came out with at the Longhair Trial!
Mick Canham has had a second win in Open on Friday so subject to KC Conformation we have a new GSP Ft Ch. |
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| munstyman |
Garbage Moi
Its the Munsty trial tommorrow...we shall see
Nice one Mick
Peter |
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| Alkemist |
Not field trials but does this count????? http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/about864.html&highlight= Not quite got around to the FTCH bit yet but hey - maybe one day
Nina |
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| scotty wong |
well yes and no i thought as my home isnt hugh and the fact that what ever i get will be with me all day at work in the van so i need somthing a bit smaller(gsps arent much smaller but ha ho). but i did consider them maybe a bit biger than i need as most of my shooting ground is wooded (although not thick) and would need somthing abit smaller that could get into the scrub outside them a bit more. as for aesthetics i find the bigger the dog with i reason the better it looks! may be its just me but they look a lot more noble. (i may add that i would aim for a male so that makes the size thing a bit more important,a mate has a female weim and she is about the right size) scotty |
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| Claire |
I'm ready to be shot down here.....
Too many weimaraners are in the wrong hands !! Simple as that. They are not an easy breed to own and are certainly not for the faint hearted. I was told recently by a very experienced weimar person that they are the 2nd hardest HPR breed to train to FT level. This did not surprise me. They are a flashy looking dog because of their colour and if anyone that has a weimar trys to tell you that they weren't first attracted to it because of its colour then I'm sorry but they are lying. The colour and their bright blue puppy eyes are extremely attractive to many, hence us rescue coordinators being kept constantly busy
They end up in the wrong hands, folk don't train them and keep on top of behaviourial problems and by the age of 18mths if not before they have a deliquent on their hands
There are many weimaraners out there that are exceptionally good dogs in a variety of disciplines. But I believe these dogs are forgotten about and only the naughty, out of control dogs stick in people's minds. When we first started working our weimar we were literally laughed at by many on our shoot. However we took it with good grace as it was expected and once they saw our dogs capabilities their laughing soon stopped and he is now welcomed on our shoot. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough weimaraners being worked and trialled for the majority of people to see the good in this breed. None of the people on our shoot trial their dogs and so the only dogs they get to see are those doing a full days work. I am certain that if we had turned up with an out of control dog that wouldn't work they would have all gone home thinking weimaraners were a fashion dog and not a working dog. As it stands we've managed to change a few peoples minds and personally I'm quite proud of that I'm now training my young weimaraner and fingers crossed I manage to get her to a level that will also do the breed some justice.
Anyway, enough of me ranting on about weimaraners. What were we talking about again
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| Mike |
Thats what kind of kicked off the whole discussion Peter... |
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| langhaar |
I was told recently by a very experienced weimar person that they are the 2nd hardest HPR breed to train to FT level. This did not surprise me.
What breed in their opinion was the hardest . What reasons did they give for saying a weim was difficult to train? Good HPR's excist on many shoots but are not seen by the majority in the field as they shoot more on larger commercial days. Better to be a good fish in a small pond than trying to compete in a shark infested lake.Isn't that what our breeds are about, handler , dog , a gun and a few birds for the pot on ground which demonstrates their versatility. Best to leave the hoovering on bigger days to dogs with singular skills? |
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| tashap |
well I tend to have a few shoots during the season and one main one, the main one is a syndicate where they invite guests so she is seen by a few people, the others are syndicate but its personal friends only and one that is a commerical shoot run on several different grounds. Then of course you get the good ones that see a bit of publishing space in the shooting magasines.
We've been lucky in the last couple of years the weimaraner has had quite alot of good press coverage for various reasons maybe things just change slowly but more people who don't shoot are starting to look into working their dogs whether they make it onto the field and stick at it remains to be seen. |
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| langhaar |
And how did you aquire this work Tashap ? I suspect because you started in the beating line, probably without a dog, to learn basic bird work which included their habitat and husbandry and how a shoot is run. Aquired a HPR, chose a breed which suited both your personality and working needs, trained it in obedience before taking it to a shoot , made sure it was under control so your dog became a readily accepted member because it did its job as competently as the rest. Then, because your dog was seen by the keeper to be a competent retriever who delivered birds which he could sell to the dealer you were invited to do more work on the shoot two to three years down the line.
With more seasons under your belt you have gained a |