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sako75 · Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject:

Bill ,

My point exactly but then who am I to argue. The club do have an extensive area to run the dogs but the space is not utilised with the younger dogs.

Re . the stays - The idea is that if your dog fails for example , the 25 metre stay - you have to go away and practice until you get it right. Once you get that consistently , you then move on to the 100 metre stay and so on................

I feel that I am not in a posistion to question any of their methods - afterall , they have field trial champions and field trial winners , so someone has to be doing something right. I have limited knowledge and a very average young weimaraner - enough said !

For some reason the emphasis is put on obedience first , retrieving second and hunting last. Don't get me wrong , it is a great club full of friendly and helpfull members and trainers alike - I love going there BUT I have heard SO much about "HUNTING , HUNTING , HUNTING" with regards to early training , that I am begining to question their training set up. I am probably wrong to do so but I now feel that their structure does not meet my personal needs. If I stick with the club , I will have to spend the next month training the 100 M stay / close heelwork etc in order to progress to the next level (stop whistle , drop to shot / flush , blinds etc) and I am not sure if I want to go down that route.

As you know , I have done a fair bit of relevant gundog training with Millie already BUT when I go to the training day , I quite often finish the day on a bit of a downer because Millie has failed the heelwork etc - I feel a bit of a twat and quite paranoid because I know what Millie is capable of but I never get a chance to show what she can do because of the heelwork etc. I have done some training regarding heelwork but not much as I do not consider this to be too important. Obviously I have done a fair bit of sit/stay exercises but never at 100 metres for 3 minutes.

Sorry to go on and on but I do not really know where to go from here ??

Confused

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:16 am Post subject:

Barry I'm going to say what I honestly feel. This is being disloyal to the other trainers in your branch of the club whom I know personally but I cant help that, the dog comes first.
I don't think you can gain much from that type of training. Hunting is a priority for any of the h.p.r. breeds. Young dogs need the practice at it and it is quite possible that for some of the people attending, the ground available there is all they have to work on. It is almost certain that their only chance of receiving hunting instruction is while hunting their dogs on that ground.

Stays at 100 metres aren't even a requirement at any labrador retriever class I have attended. Heelwork is often useful, I train my own dogs it but only loose heelwork. Labrador trial or obedience ring heelwork is not needed.

The classes I now take were a little bit like what you describe until 4 or 5 of us including Tom Brechney rebelled. We simply said we could do all that obedience stuff at home , we wanted practical hunting, steadiness and retrieving work. Since we were the ones having a go, sometimes successfully, at trials, the total beginners backed us and things changed, I like to think for the better.

Go to your groups A.G.M. and say what you feel, nothing good ever comes from grumbling quietly in a corner. If you are still dissatisfied, vote with your feet.

The only good reason I can think of for not hunting the youngsters is that the ground could be lost if a sheep chase occurs. If that is not the case then the young dogs need the use of the ground for hunting just as much if not more than the experienced ones.
By the sound of it, the way things are at present, you would be just as well off attending with Annie at Stuarts retriever classes. You certainly wouldn't have to travel so far !

There is far too much cover on the ground available to me and there never is much in the way of game, but if you're ever down this way give me a shout and we'll go out together for a mooch around and I'll help you if I can.

Bill T.

chiendog · Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 116 **Breed:**

Speaking as a North American hunter and a very mediocre trainer (on a good day) here are my thoughts and comments re: your training club situation.

sako75 · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:06 am Post subject:

Thanks Cheindog/Bill,

I feel somewhat better now.

I am fortunate enough to have my own small pheasant shoot (I release 200 birds per year) and I do use this for all my own training. I have done a fair bit of hunting with Miillie but my problem is that I would like an experienced trainer to be there to give advice. Another problem is that alot of the pheasants are nesting just now on my ground and obviously I do not want to have my young inexperienced dog romping around so I tend to shy away from the hunting at the moment.

Bill , thanks for the offer , I may take you up on it and also you are more than welcome to come up to Stonehaven this year. The birds will be released at the end of August , so I will be dogging in every evening until the season starts. Once the season has started , take Buck and I could provide you with the live game to train on - in exchange for a few words of wisdom -- of course Laughing

I am not sure what I am going to do with regards the training days but I have to say that they do not really suit my needs......................

Cheindog - some very interesting points and quotes - I like your style Wink

weima · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:44 am Post subject:

Barry, the one thing I will say & I agree that your training classes are not necessarily what you want BUT it does get the dog used to working with other dogs and people around and also gets used to other people throwing dummies rather than yourself.

I think you have to take out of it what you want & it is only once a
month [?]. I do all my training on my own but do try to make an effort once a month to go to the training classes.

Have you actually said any of your worries to your trainers? Perhaps they can offer some advice & explain where you are coming from.
_________________
Claire Smile

Minstergate Dual Purpose Weimaraners

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:31 am Post subject:

Hi Weima, I know what you mean, being able to train among others is valuable. I kind of feel a large part of the problem is the logbook system, it is, I think, too rigid.
Barry's club is a branch of the one I train for and we were supposed to use the same logbook system. I was not enchanted with it and neither was my co-trainer. We let it quietly die a death!!!
We do have sheep on our ground and we do have to take great care, but all the dogs from the puppies upwards get a chance to hunt. I think this is essential not just for the dogs but for the handlers. How to handle differing wind directions is something handlers and dogs need to know, usually the dogs understand it just fine but the beginner handlers dont.
When a very unruly dog turns up, we still try to give it a chance to hunt in a sheep free area even if we have to attach a longline to it.
If a dog is needing a lot more obedience training I often suggest its owner should take it to obedience classes. We are only on this ground once a month for a few hours and I prefer to use that time on hunting,steadiness and retrieving training. We do our best to give individual dogs work suitable to the standard they are at.
If someone turns up and it is obvious after a few classes that they are doing nothing with the dog between classes. They usually see that they are being left behind or even overtaken by other novice handlers. I call these people Sunday picknickers and they usually either drop out or try a lot harder. Either way suits me fine! The logbook just isn't needed, not in its present form anyway.

Barry, thanks for your offer, I hope to take you up on it. In return I promise to try to be gentle with you when I'm ripping your work to shreds Twisted Evil

Bill T.

Claire · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject:

Bill, can I ask, is your training part of a breed club or totally separate of all breed clubs ?
_________________
Hunting is natural, even foxes do it !

Whenever life hands you lemons, grab the salt and add the tequila

sako75 · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject:

Claire ,

I fully understand the importance and value of training with other dogs BUT my biggest problem is that in order to progress into the other groups , my dog has to complete the 3 minute 100 metre stay etc (I could not care less if she ever does this for 3 minutes or 3 days........).
I think Bill raised a valid point earlier , suggesting that many of the existing members never get a chance to hunt their dogs on open ground etc and use the training day to fulfill their needs. The feeling I get is that many of the members go to these days and work towards working tests as opposed to actual field trials. This may explain why there is a big emphasis on retrieving rather than say hunting.

I have not expressed any of my concerns to the trainers - I would feel uncomfortable doing so. They are very experienced and the last thing that I want to do is to start grumbling about the system. Afterall , they seem to be successfull using their methods BUT I am certain that the people with the FT champions and FTA winners MUST be doing their own thing in their own time.

I am one of the lucky ones who has access to live game pretty much all year round and I appreciate that this is a valuable aid where training an HPR is concerned. Some of the members dogs at the club , have never experienced live game because they cannot secure gound where game is present. I think this is why they gear their training towards working tests rather than fieldwork. Good luck to them but I want to concentrate on "live game" as opposed to strict obedience and complicated dummy work etc. I know dummy work IS important but whats the point of having a great retriever when the dog will not hunt with speed , style and confidence ???

As you all know , I am new to the field trial standard of training BUT I do have an extensive hunting background and I do know what is expected of a top class HPR (well , I think I do?). I am unsure where all this "rigid" obedience etc fits in Confused

I always thought that the best dogs out there were the dogs that showed off their natural ability and flair with minimum interference from the handler - this is what I want to aspire to - not the dog that has to be given commands every 2 seconds. I have a friend who competes in retriever trials - I train with him quite often - it amazes me just how many commands that he has to give the dog to get it out to the area where the dummy is. His dog is like a robot STOP / LEFT / RIGHT / GO BACK / SIT / PEEP PEEP ................etc etc !! (he will kill me if he reads this Shocked

) but the point that I am trying to get across is that I want a dog that uses it's brain and instinct and I will never achieve this concentrating on strict obedience at the club.

Sorry for the ramblings ....................... Rolling Eyes

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject:

Hi Claire,
The training classes are part of a breed club, but as you know here in Scotland to get sufficient numbers to have a good club with a balance of thoughts and attitudes any h.p.r. breed has access to the club. I first went with a brittany. We have or have had Brittanies, G.S.P.'s, Wirehairs, Munsterlanders (only two I think) Spinones, Vizslas, all types, Weimaraners and one or two others whos breeds were indeterminate - to me anyway! I like it this way, no one breed takes precedence on working days.

I was first a member of this club and then a trainer for it. I ceased being a member after a few years although continuing as a trainer. This allowed me to be a loose cannon firing in from the outside. I could not vote at A.G.M.'s but was always invited to them in case I had any thoughts or ideas to put forward. After about 20 years as a trainer I feel it is time I was voted off but after bringing this subject up several times at A.G.M.'s I am still doing it. Perhaps they are all masochists who like getting slagged off !

The club does its best for newcomers and the committee is hard working. They organize not only grouse counting days , but one or two days per season where the dogs are given the chance to do the full hunt, point and retrieve under the supervision of a keeper who used to be one of my co-trainers. Any dog under reasonably good control - not field trial standard is asked if they wish to take part.

Last season I took part in this with my brittany, by no means fully trained, she was about 9 or 10 months. She worked well for her age and I had a very enjoyable day. She did the full h.p.r. on a pheasant.
I also go picking-up on this estate, the other pickers-up include other club members, 2 Weimaraners, 3 assorted Vizslas, 2 or 3 g.s.p.'s and last year one very young and hair raising brittany. The keeper as already stated is a h.p.r. person and he bends over backwards to be helpful.

Sorry to have waffled on ! Embarassed

Bill T.

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject:

Hi Barry, There is a very big difference between the BEST handling dog and the MOST handled dog. The best handling dog will need little or no handling, not on the day of the trial anyway!
This is the dog that without looking like a robot while hunting will just flow over the ground and when situations arise where the dog could go wrong is so easily controlled you could be excused for thinking the handler had little to do with it or for thinking that the situation was not as awkward as you had first thought.

Contrast this with the MOST handled dog, its handler will be hanging on to his whistle for dear life and should some awkward situation arrive you will hear the whistles and shouts all over the place!

I once attended a Spring Pointing Test on partridge. Tom Brechney was running and his bitch put up a hare and chased it. Tom was taken by surprise at this and the bitch had a good chase. The other spectators including the judges laughed and cheered the bitch on. One of the judges actually threw his hat high in the air yelling, "I've lived to see it!!!" Tom knew it was all over and simply turned to the spectators and bowed! This was the first time anyone had ever seen one of Toms' dogs go out of control, it was a cause of much remark and great rejoicing !

I spoke to Tom shortly afterwards and his words on the subject were, "Aye, she's done it, but she'll no dae it again!" This bitch went on to do very well in trials and is the granny of my present pup.

Control is needed Barry but try not to let it show.

Bill T.