I know in our breed we have tri colours and solid blacks as disallowed colours. I can certainly see why they don't want solid blacks as that is a dominant colour and a colour you would have problems seeing on a dark winter's afternoon, in pouring rain, in a forest!
However I fail to see why the tri-colours are disallowed as the same problem of dominence and not seeing don't apply. Interestingly it was one of the things that Malcolm Wallis said ages ago inso much that he has no problem with disallowed colours providing there is a just and valid reason why such as solid blacks for us. But then again why did the German's allow solid blacks in GSP's but not GWP's and I'm presumining GLP's (Brenda?)
A few years ago the KC contacted breed clubs and asked for a list of recommended colours so that anyone who applied to register puppies from colours not listed would be deemed to be non-standard. So the club duly did it and lo and behold we still have grey, grey & white, grey brindle _________________ Sharon Pinkerton
www.bareve.com
Owner & breeder of Field Trial 1st prize winners
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Must admit I rather like the dog but I like it because I could easily see it on point in cover.
Bill T.
Bill she was a "hell of a dog" and certainly Ann's dog in a million. I had seen pictures of her and thought "she looks quite nice" but when I saw her in the flesh she was so much better and a coat texture and thickness to drool over. I certainly don't dislike the colour but apart from the American's and a few Brits this colour isn't liked at all. _________________ Sharon Pinkerton
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a good example why the vdd wants nothing to do with the american kennel club
She may not have been the colour the VDD people like/d but she was one hell of a dog and boy did she have a far harsher, thicker coat (with the correct undercoat) than the 50 odd dogs I saw the other weekend in Germany
I do think that the DD people could take a leaf out of the AKC book on GWP's on behalf of eye colour though - another area where the AKC's dogs are much better than the DD's.
if the vdd have as a group moved towards a different coat than what is written in the u/s or uk set in concrete standards,so be it, the akc don't allow black so i guess the white american wirehaired pointer has reached a point where they can call the gwp there own.
the dd is still a young breed but at least the vdd has a living set of standards open to improve the working side of things.
i find that white bitch to be an eyesore and as far removed from a versitile gundog as you can get.....it's a white wirehaired irish setter almost
when you examined those german dogs sharon where you looking at them from an english show point of veiw or from a suitable for work one.
or against the english standard vs the vdd standard
just curious
if the vdd have as a group moved towards a different coat than what is written in the u/s or uk set in concrete standards,so be it, the akc don't allow black so i guess the white american wirehaired pointer has reached a point where they can call the gwp there own.
the dd is still a young breed but at least the vdd has a living set of standards open to improve the working side of things.
i find that white bitch to be an eyesore and as far removed from a versitile gundog as you can get.....it's a white wirehaired irish setter almost
when you examined those german dogs sharon where you looking at them from an english show point of veiw or from a suitable for work one.
or against the english standard vs the vdd standard
just curious
She may be an eyesore to you but she fits the AKC standard for a GWP and I know for a fact that this breeder/owner has never claimed that her or her others dogs are DD's whereas some AKC breeders do. She may also have never been tested via the versatility route in America but I'm pretty sure she had a MH which are more in keeping with our F/T's than the AKC F/T's.
When I went to Germany the other week I was looking at them in comparision to the FCI breed standard which is adopted by the VDD club. In particular the bits about the coat which included Wirehaired harsh, flat lying and dense. Outer coat approx 2 to 4 cms long, dense water resistant undercoat. Through its harshness and density it should provide as good protection against weather and injuries as possible. Pronounced eyebrows and a well developed not too long, as harsh as possible beard emphasises the determind expression.
Coats were slick and close fitting, some lovely and harsh and some oily to touch, 4 out of 58 had any degree of undercoat, most had coat so close on the ribs it was like GSP's and would never be 2 cm's long. Eyebrows non existence but most had beards from goaty to full. Where the Germans have got it right is the lovely shorter harsher coat which is underneath the dog and inside of the thighs. But what I saw on the day had all been graded a minimum of good - most were V Good and Excellent but IMO they don't even meet their own DD breed standard with regards to their coat.
As for test results - they all tested with good results but I've seen examples of excellent test results that wouldn't suit me. Some American chap who we were speaking to said he would never use a German dog just on the basis of his test results as he would want to see how it actually worked with regards to ability and biddability. _________________ Sharon Pinkerton
www.bareve.com
Owner & breeder of Field Trial 1st prize winners
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I must be easy to please, the bitch I see up on that stand looks as if she can work. The Irish Setters I see in the ring do not look much like workers to me, can't see how this bitch resembles one. I've no axe to grind here, I'm not involved with either breed. I try not to get too involved with what I see as showring conflicts, I have enough problems trying to get the work side of things going well !
The colour may be incorrect, I couldn't say, but for work purposes that colour would suit me just fine. If that makes me easy to please it's O.K. by me !
yes she is an akc gwp and by being bred to a totally different breed standard she is most impressive i'm sure stacked up on a bench with a ribbon....she may work very well bill but it may be to the american style of bird hunting only, white is the best colour to follow when hunting those big area's on horse back.
i suppose i do have an axe to grind with this kind of showdog vs a versitile bred gwp or german dd. a white gwp is hopeless for deer work or goose hunting, unless you are in snow country. they stand out like dogs balls when after ducks.
if in america white is ok and black is not then why is there such a big issue with tri coloured gwp's.
yes she is an akc gwp and by being bred to a totally different breed standard she is most impressive i'm sure stacked up on a bench with a ribbon....she may work very well bill but it may be to the american style of bird hunting only, white is the best colour to follow when hunting those big area's on horse back.
i suppose i do have an axe to grind with this kind of showdog vs a versitile bred gwp or german dd. a white gwp is hopeless for deer work or goose hunting, unless you are in snow country. they stand out like dogs balls when after ducks.
if in america white is ok and black is not then why is there such a big issue with tri coloured gwp's.
I don't want to pedantic here but her MH award in America is not F/T's and it's not done on horse back. They are a foot hunting test where the dogs are expected to hunt and point within a walking distance from the gun - as I said earlier very much closer to our F/T's than the AKC F/T's where the dogs "do" run the horizon and you can only keep up with them on horseback.
I do agree that her colour would very much go against the versitility traits such as deer and ducks but as I said all along Ann has never claimed that this particular bitch is a "American DD" and she does fit the AKC GWP standard both in looks and working ability.
Going on colour - Carole's old dog is very similar marked to this bitch and I believe he hasn't missed a single season working for Carole.
The reason black has not been allowed in America is that part of the membership have assumed that black will then dominate the breeding with it being the dominant colour and the puppy mills jumping on the band wagon breeding the new colour. They also thought, very much wrongly though and most now believe this, that introducing black would give them tri's. This is not possible as you need the tri-colour pattern gene to give you tri's it cannot come from a b/w to l/w breeding - unless you have a dog way, way back who has the tri gene as a recessive - but then again you would need it on both sides. What is really interesting from the investigation's I've done on where does tri colour come from ...... there always seems to be some German blood in the pedigree.......... and I've seen more than the odd tri colour in Germany...... Yet most of the breeders/breed masters deny the colour and as I said on another post no-one can say why tri's are such a no-no
_________________ Sharon Pinkerton
www.bareve.com
Owner & breeder of Field Trial 1st prize winners
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I personally don't like the lighter gwp's but I don't have anything against them. As Bill said, you certainly would see them on point as I do struggle to see Harvey sometimes on the moor.
Quote:
against the versitility traits such as deer and ducks but
There are labs and spaniels who are quite pale and are used for wildfowling. Rob takes my springer, Pippa with him and she has quite a bit of white on her. She wears a snazzy camo coat lol!
This colour thing does seem to grab everyones attention...right across the breeds. ( I seem to remember the Weim's `Blue' thread getting a similar interest . Is it possible for the mods to move this aspect of the thread from `Saying Hi to Lynn' to a more suitable place for both its continuation and for future reference
There is alot of useful knowledge and information coming out here as well as opinion and debate
Peter
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She may also have never been tested via the versatility route in America but I'm pretty sure she had a MH which are more in keeping with our F/T's than the AKC F/T's.
