I think it is also important to realise, that it is not necessarily all about the colour on its own that is associated with a dogs `perceived' camouflage to its prey. But also how the colour and pattern of colours breaks up the outline of a dog relative to its background as seen from the prey animal being hunted
It is often made plain to me with my dogs that even with such a dramatic contrast as is found in having Black and White dogs, how often they can `disappear' due to their outline being broken up.
From a Large Munsterlander / Glp perspective it should be remembered that `Colour' was a defining element that made the two separate breeds, so of all the breeds the modern day breeders and enthusiasts have a responsibility to the breed to maintain the colour distinction.
Peter
I know there is a colour standard for a reason But can anyone explain the reason? If it's just because someone has said, at some point in history, that it should be so?
Yes.
Quote:
is that reason enough?
Apparently.
Dividing breeds based on colour happened quite frequently when the first breed clubs and standards were being drawn up. At one time, all the French epagneul breeds (Francais, Picardy, Blue Picardy etc.) were considered "French Spaniels". However, they were soon divided based (mainly) on colour (the pont audemer was classed as separate not due to hair colour but by hair type...it has a curly coat). The first Weimaraners ever to be registered in Germany were listed in the GSP stud book as German Short Haired Pointers (grey). The two breeds are of course considered separate now (and if you really want to start a flame war on a weim forum, just start a thread regarding 'blue" weims).
Of course the Munsterlander/Langhaar divide is based solely on colour as are the divisions among most French braques (Francais, Ariege, Auvergne,). There are other examples...Irish Red and White setter/Irish Setter.... In fact all the various setter "breeds" could be considered as colour variations of the main breed at some point in their development.
It is interesting to note that in many cases the most successful pointing breeds in terms of performance are not divided by colour. The Pointer, GSP, Brittany and GWP/DD accept most/all colour combinations (no tri colour for the GSP/GWP or pointer) and look at how well they've done. It is perhaps even more interesting to speculate just how successful other breeds would have been if they had not been divided and confined to a relatively small genetic pool based solely on the colour of their coat. _________________ facta non verba
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject:
munstyman wrote:
I think it is also important to realise, that it is not necessarily all about the colour on its own that is associated with a dogs `perceived' camouflage to its prey. But also how the colour and pattern of colours breaks up the outline of a dog relative to its background as seen from the prey animal being hunted
It is often made plain to me with my dogs that even with such a dramatic contrast as is found in having Black and White dogs, how often they can `disappear' due to their outline being broken up.
From a Large Munsterlander / Glp perspective it should be remembered that `Colour' was a defining element that made the two separate breeds, so of all the breeds the modern day breeders and enthusiasts have a responsibility to the breed to maintain the colour distinction.
Peter
Hi Peter,
I am not convinced that colour makes any material difference to performance of a dog. There are great Munsties (supposed to only be b/w), GWP's of all variants are good, Langhaars are liver/white but they all do well. But perhaps some characteristics are linked to the same gene, who knows ?
Just thought I would clarify Sharon's earlier point on colours in DD's.
The German regulations in Drahthaars about colour are purely to protect the existance of the braunschimmel (liver/white).
Genetically black is a dominant colour in DD's, so is the solid liver pattern, liver/white is a double recessive.
Black/white dogs are not permitted to interbreed because that could create dogs with both genes being for black/white (but look the same as any other black/white dog). Such a dog can then only produce black/offspring in its future matings.
Exactly the same applies to solid liver (or liver with white chest patches) - which is why I find it confusing that they do permit two solid livers to mate. I would have thought that should be banned too if they were being consistent.
The Germans like to throw black and whites and solid livers into the bloodlines as they believe it strengthens pigment in liver/white dogs, which they believe become washed out over generations otherwise. Old wives tale, evidenced ?? - don't know, but you do see washed out, greyish liver and white dogs.
The tri-color issue I am still researching, but it is the tan point patterns that are the characteristic and I think it is linked to poor pigmentation (certainly the white nails on the feet and lighter pigmented noses were evident on the litter I saw in Germany).
Interesting to hear from other continental GLP breeders about colours outside of the standard of brown ( not liver, there is no red pigmentation ). There are some with bloodlines outside the country of origin who are breeding GLP's which are tan, blonde ( which means red pigmentation must have been added by out crossing to red dogs ) and whites. It would seem the allwhite GLP's carry a lethal or semi lethal gene, puppies die at birth or don't make 3 years of age. In German GLP's are breeding to 0.4 % coefficiency, only outcrossing so colours remain true to standard . Others are breeding up to 36% .What is the limit for Drathaars?
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject:
Hi Brenda,
I don't have the 2007 Zuchtbuch yet, but 2006 stats for the 3,284 Drahthaar puppies born that year were;
Schwartzschimmel (black/white) 644 puppies (20%)
Braunschimmel (liver/white) 2,372 (72%)
Braun (solid liver) 17 (1%)
Braun mit Brustflecks (Solid liver with white chest patch) 252 (8%)
The figures in the 3,292 Drahthaar puppies born in 1992 (as far back as my stud books go) were ;
Schwartzschimmel (black/white) 338 puppies (10%)
Braunschimmel (liver/white) 2,597 (79%)
Braun (solid liver) 106 (3%)
Braun mit Brustflecks (Solid liver with white chest patch) 251 (8%)
The population of black and whites has doubled in 15 years, mainly to the detriment of liver/whites. The VDD would ideally like black/whites to be around 15%, but many top winning dogs have been black/white so they are popular. _________________ Peter McCullough
It would seem the colour black is gaining some popularity. I did ask a couple of German breeders, sometimes there are "fads " same as over here.It would be interesting to know if this was the only reason.
At what % are they allowed to breed, all GLP matings are assessed by computer to work out a level of in breeding. If it's more than 0.4 % then special permission has to be granted. In Munsterlanders it's much higher, 34% I'm told, is this correct Peter ?which can include quite near relatives . I don't know the levels for shorts, wires or weimaraners, for comparisons.
Out crossing has always been a breeding factor but there have been some sires such as Elch von Hanauer Land who was used 52 times. At the same time as adopting the 0.4% guidlines they also decided 12 times as the sire limit in the 1990's. I think 5 generations but don't quote me, I'll have to phone Birgit for more accurate details. Do you know about Weimaraner breeding rules over there?
Sorry, I have to be honest and say that by and large the German Weimaraner is pretty much a mystery to me, can't read German either which doesn't help.
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