Hi Maxine,
I am just curious as to why you are being so evasive TBH, nothing meant by it one way or the other. No one HAS to do anyhting they don't want to.
Munstyman,
No the mod's aren't away on holiday, this one is busy spending every waking hour either at work, fixing his car or training his dogs and is more than a little pissed off that so much of his time is being spent replying to the absurd number of PM's this topic is generating in the first few free hours I have had in an age. _________________ Fi 1 year old Weimaraner
Grace Weimaraner. Gone but not forgotten.
Harley Weimaraner. Much loved and sorely missed.
can someone clarify for me (as i have spent some time reading through this) whether the DD and the GWP are the same, and if not what is the difference?
Mike I'd swap you my last weeks inbox I was still ploughing through it at 3.30 am one night last week and still had my own work to do next day:!:
Peter
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: GWPS and DDs
[quote="sashalgwps"]
kiwi wrote:
yeah helen i think we could breed some very good dogs, suited to our own type of hunting enviroment, i also feel that the german hunting scene is closer to our own in regards to the different type of game quote]
Hi Jason
For me you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly the point I was trying to make in my earlier email.
The working gundog scene in the UK is different to that of other countries - we don't have the same expanse of land, the same terrain or the same 'wildlife' to hunt. Therefore our dogs do need to work in a different way to achieve an end goal. Our Field Trials and to an extent working tests allow us to review that ability. That is not to say we are changing the breed - just adapting it for our use, as someone else said 'horses for courses' and unfortunately that does have to be the case.
My feeling is that if we start breeding from dogs purely based on their overseas test results (where the work of the dogs differs) then we will eventually change what we have been developing for the last 30 years in this country. I have absolutely no issue in taking advantage of these overseas breed tests/systems and working together with other countries to create the best dogs we can in the UK but lets make sure that the dogs can also adapt to the UK scene so we don't eventually change the way our GWPs work.
I would like to see us continue to test and prove our dogs on the UK scene aswell as any other testing systems available. We then don't allow for any chance of splitting the breed in this country.
On the otherhand if we did go down the route of sticking entirely to say the VDD system in Germany then shouldn't we be seeing these dogs completing and passing all stages of the VDD tests??
Again JMO
Alex
hi alex, i can see where your coming from as i agree 100%, why throw 30 years of work down the drain and start again, i am involved in the vdd ground work with it's possible coming to this country, the germans have said all along the tests will be designed to suit this country. trail barking or loud on track on hare, like in the uk is not required, however i can see being loud at the end of a drag would come in handy for deer stalking in our thick heavy bush the main point is the hunt testing/breeding can be styled to any country once an understanding of the term 'versitile' means.
i tried to read the test proposal put forward by munstyman but to be honest i couldn't get pass the banter bill kept refering too in the trials world, sorry bill no malice intended, a testing system like what we have here is great to see the natural skills pups and intermediate dogs are showing, the tests are designed for an allround dog even though they may never hunt deer the dogs natural ability to track and recover a wounded deer can at least be identified and marked for future referance.
i don't use field trial results or awards as a measure of a hpr, my main intrest is how the dog tested as from a breeding point of veiw if the tests are done right it will show up far more than a trained dog that has had the faults corrected over time and by human hand.
i have to also mention the hunting climate today as it can influence where the working breed should be heading, we have the best uk breeders on this site for our breed, they all get puppie enquires like i do down here, i have never had a request for a wire pup for trials work,the trials world for hpr's is not that big here compared to 20 years ago, i'm not sure if it has declined the same in the uk, but we are seeing a change in the requirements for the average hunter over here, they are asking for a true versitile dog, feather,fur and hair....the breeds like the gsp,britt and gwp are now starting to come back into fashion after many years of being unsuitable to the average roughshooter, the reason is simple the 'uk' type trials bred hpr has been bred out with the decline in the sport.
the dogs are now being bred by duckshooters and deerstallkers, not dog competitors...a testing system and a better understanding of comformation will see the standard lift over time.
i have no plans to quit my dogs and start with german imports i am confident the german blood will boost the gene pool but i'm happy with our nzvhda and would like to see it increase in size.
sitting on the other side of the world i have a nice window into the sporting scene in the uk and i have seen many changes in a short time, tail docking and anti hunting laws, {i am a mod on a large uk hunting site}
i get alot of enquires from uk hunters asking about gwps' and there use for stalking and for the increasing boar population, i do think more uk shooters will be asking for suitable hpr's in the future not just birddogs.
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject:
windem bang wrote:
Once more Peter how many "real" 1st places have your new German tested imports won ? It is now becoming obvious that you are being evasive. The reason I specify the German Tested dogs is because it is them you keep telling us are so-o-o-o much better
Bill, where did I claim German Tested Dogs were superior, or that MY DD's were superior in UK Field Trials ??????
I was simply explaining a different approach in Germany, which I am uniquely position to do as I have walked the walk. I have had success and I have crashed and burned and picked myself up and gone back and won.
I am trying to have an open honest debate about a system of testing, linked to breeding regulation that seems to work to create a versatile dog. I fully understand where you are coming from, I have heard it all before ...
German dogs are noisy
German dogs must be hardmouthed 'caus they kill cats
German dogs are chase everything' caus they let them chase hares
German dogs have bad temperaments
To me having a system where any idiot can put any two dogs they like together, pay the Kennel Club some money, and call themselves a breeder - no mandatory HD or health checks, no mandatory conformation or form assessment, no mandatory proof of working ability (however that is done) is not going to get the best from the breeds.
Surely something needs to be done to protect retaining working dogs instincts and health.
Last edited by petermac on Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:09 am; edited 3 times in total
can someone clarify for me (as i have spent some time reading through this) whether the DD and the GWP are the same, and if not what is the difference?
A
in my mind they are the same if you are dealing with the uk/european lines, the dd has it's own stud book but dd's can cross over to the kennel club and become gwp's.
the american akc gwp has a different breed standard and a shady past
i tried to read the test proposal put forward by munstyman but to be honest i couldn't get pass the banter bill kept refering too in the trials world,
Have you read the scheme itself or just the comments section
( mike is in the process of putting up the second draft which takes on board the comments) As there is no `Bills banter' in the scheme
Peter
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject:
Hi Kiwi,
The point is that you cannot ever go back though. A DD can always become a GWP, but a GWP can never become a DD. The UK GWP past is not a bed of roses either - but a lot of hard work has been done by a lot of people to change that. _________________ Peter McCullough
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: Requested Field Trial Awards
Mike wrote:
Hello Peter,
I've been away for a while and just read through this entire thread, some of it makes interesting reading, much of it is pretty tedious.
I would certainly like to see a straight answer to Bill's question and I think it isn't an entirely unreasonable question given that Maxine claims to run the undisputed DD kennel in the UK then surely it is UK results that count as opposed to those in the country of origin?
On a similar note are the dogs you refer to in your post (Timo and Pauline) dogs you bred yourselves in the UK?
As requested here is a list of our Field Trial Awards - I don't really see the necessity for it personally but obviously some people on here think we don't have any at all!!!!! Please note these have been gained in less than 12 years of breeding and trialling.
As you are well aware Bill rubbished any working test achievements of which we have over 100 awards in and around 50 or more awards in Open including many many firsts places.
Are we including CC's and res CC's too as we have 65 CC's and 134 res CC's in the UK, we have 15 UK title holders including 5 Full Champions, 4 overseas champions, these have been gained in 18 years of showing. May I also add I don't award CC's in any breed therefore I have achieved this with no "expected return favours" nor do I judge F/T's !!!!!!!!
Peter has gained awards in Germany that I have already mentioned on here and is the only UK entrant to run in the Hegewald also gaining awards. I do hope the following list satisfies your request, I am sure Bill will rubbish it as 1st places are the ONLY things that count according to him.
Ch. Just Joking for Kimmax JW Sh.CM
3rd Novice GWPC (age 2 years, giving him his Full Champion Title - the only award given on the day)
1st Novice GSPA
2nd All Aged GSPA (winning the trial)
4th Novice GSPA
3rd Novice Hung Viz Club (only award given on the day)
3rd Novice Weim Ass (only award given on the day)
COM Novice GSPA
7 awards gained in 2 Seasons.
Kimmax Kareful Kid
2nd Novice GWPC
COM Novice GSPA
COM Novice GSPA
COM Novice Weim Ass
Ch. Kimmax Rock the Kasbar
COM Novice
COM Novice
COM Open
Kimmax Klearly the Best
COM Novice GWPC
3RD All Aged GSPA
Kimmax Krossing the Line
4th Novice GWPC
Award in All Aged - haven't got details
Kimmax Kollectable
3rd Novice GWPC in her first and only ever trial.
Abbotsbourne Shooting Star over Coneycovert (sired by Kimmax Keep them Talking)
COM All Aged Brittany Club of GB
4th Novice Dukeries
COM Novice GSPA
COM All Aged HVC
4th All Aged GSPA
2nd Novice GSPA
COM Novice GSPC
COM Novice Brittany Club
3rd All Aged GWPC
3rd All Aged IS club of GB
2nd Novice HVS
2nd Novice GPWC
4th All Aged GSPA
2nd Novice GSPA
3rd Open GWPC
3rd AA IS Club of GB
2nd Open GSPA
Maxine _________________ Maxine McCullough
Kimmax
The UK's undisputed top Deutsch Drahthaar kennel
Last edited by maxine mccullough on Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:15 am; edited 2 times in total
i tried to read the test proposal put forward by munstyman but to be honest i couldn't get pass the banter bill kept refering too in the trials world,
Have you read the scheme itself or just the comments section
( mike is in the process of putting up the second draft which takes on board the comments) As there is no `Bills banter' in the scheme
Peter
yes i did read it,and got hung up in the comments as it was hard to get a handle on the positive side while getting even more confused by bills posts which i would have liked to talked about when he posted them.
i would have expected margaret,mc, to add alot more as she has been there done that in getting the nzvhda off the ground and running in this country....i will go back again tonite and try and read it again.
yeah peter i was going to add the one way traffic with the vdd but didn't want to get too confusing
the early history on crossbreeding when dogs came into the uk would be another topic in it's own right, and i'm hoping sharon will help fill in the gaps when it does come up in time.
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I was still ploughing through it at 3.30 am one night last week and still had my own work to do next day:!: 
