workinghprs.myfastforum.org

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject:

I'm not against tail docking Annie but I don't think it is needed in our breeds, they just aren't out there thrashing through really nasty cover enough to need this done.

Most of our breeds, I think, LOOK better docked but that is a cosmetic sort of thing.
Spaniels are a different kettle of fish they do spend a lot of time bramble bashing ! I am in favour of docking for them. It was spaniels that I docked myself back when common sense still ruled to some extent in this country.

Bill T.

durham pointer · Joined: 26 Mar 2008 Posts: 23 **Breed:**

ive kept terriers for years and terriermen often say terriers need docking.yet bedlingtons which are generally used more as bushing dogs than all-out earthworking terriers remain undocked.so the terrier breed with perhaps more likelihood of getting tail damage isnt docked Shocked

dont get me wrong,i hate the laws and most terrier breeds look ridiculous with undocked tails but that dosent stop me knowing that all the terriers ive kept didnt need docking.

but im glad they were Wink

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject:

Please excuse the change of subject for a moment - I understood that Bedlingtons were no longer worked. Do good working types still exist ?

Bill T.

druimmuir · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject:

kiwi · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject:

well i'm pro docking for gwp's, and any other breed for that matter.
it was my understanding the bedlington was a cross over between the terrier and the sight hound hence that whippet blood and terrier blood gave it the legs and nose to flush and catch rabbits, even the show bedlingtons show plenty of whippet shape to the back and tail.
for the 'go get em type' hpr like the gwp a docked tail is a must when working old man blackberry, after many years of working labs and the damage done over a few weeks hunting the tails were always a mess as were the eye lids, to say tail working damage is only present in springers is wrong bill even my pigdogs suffered, once the tail got infected and bloody is was impossible to get it to heal, they all carried plenty of boxer blood which after so long being docked gave the pups long usless and weak tails prone to damage, i also had an amercan bulldog who sprayed blood everywhere and ended up going through a painful op to get his tail docked as an adult.
i saw a gwp playing jack russel only last week Laughing

in fact liesel was pointing on her belly at one stage Laughing

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject:

Hi Kiwi, I can only go on what I've seen for myself. Maybe N.Z. cover is more dense, or more nasty or just covers a lot more of the ground ???

It must be rare in this country to have an H.P.R. that does more deep cover work than open ground or semi - open ground work. I have now seen a good number of G.S.P.'s with undocked tails - none of these dogs are having tail damage problems. I cannot say with certainty but I would think it likely that the wiries coat would give it a degree of protection a G.S.P. lacks - yet the G.S.P.'s are undamaged. At present I am only regularly seeing one young full length tail wirie, he isn't doing a lot yet admittedly but so far he has not damaged his tail.

The labs I had didn't damage their tails either and they did a lot of picking up from heavy cover, rhodies, brambles, fir tree brashings and god knows what else ! They often did this several times a week with no tail damage. I usually get more damage to the tips of a dogs ears than to anywhere else , I've often had ongoing bleeding ear injuries.

I have seen some spaniels with tail damage. I am helping a lady with a work bred cocker at the moment. This bitch fell under Scotlands no docking law and is undocked, although all she has done is hunt training, no actual work and not for long periods , she has a badly damaged tail and may need an operation to remove part of it.
I do think working spaniels are a special case.
For work in this country I would happily use any undocked member of the H.P.R. breeds ( but still think they look odd undocked) I would be unhappy to work an undocked work bred spaniel.

Bill T.

kiwi · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:13 am Post subject:

oh yeah forgot about the ears bleeding too, common in my old labs.
blackberry,boxthorn and a lovely bush we call bush lawyer all hold game of some sort having a dog suitable to get in there and flush it is where a spaniel or pig headed lab come into there own, gwp's should be able to go anywhere those flushing breeds can go, and mine do.
i was turned off by both vizsla's and gsp's because of the reluctance to enter cover, there hunting style didn't do it for me as well, although if i was after a solid birddog a gsp would be the first pick Very Happy

windem bang · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:00 am Post subject:

Again I can only go by what I see here. Viszlas don't usually do it for me either. I think I've only seen two good smoothhaired ones and one of them was hard mouthed ! The other was a dream dog ( a bitch) I don't know how she hunted cover but she was great on a grouse moor ! Nearly all the smoothhairs I come into contact with are close range dogs and nearly all of them are just a bit too "precious" for my taste.

The labs I've had have been good cover dogs - better than G.S.P.'s and most Brittanies but not better than a good spaniel. I don't think any big dog is the equal of a good spaniel in heavy cover. The big dog may be very, very willing but its' size just doesn't let it go through the same spaces among dead branches, brashing piles etc.

I'm curious - I know N.Z. has big mountain ranges. Is there a bird or birds there the equivalent of our grouse that you hunt up and shoot ??? Do you have "big running" ground to coin what I think is a U.S. term ?

Bill T.

durham pointer · Joined: 26 Mar 2008 Posts: 23 **Breed:**

i wouldnt want a bedlington but yes they are still worked by some.

a bedlington is a terrier,it is often crossed with greyhounds and whippets to produce lurchers.

there is no cover in the north of england that i have seen which i need to worry about Wink

my gwp wont be trained along normal hpr methods.i wanted a good bushing/ratting/rabbit-fox finding dog.he will work all sorts of cover almost daily aswell as kill rats in confined spaces and i will be very suprised if he damages his tail.

kiwi · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:39 am Post subject:

your dog will only be doing the sideline work the gwp is capable of then d/p....most gwp's will kill vermin and not batter an eyelid Wink

bill if you could picture the uk without the people and nz as a blank canvas to mirror the uk downunder, we are an upsidedown version of the uk but the warm bits are at the top and the scottish bits are at the bottom Very Happy

we have a huge area that was planted in heather but sadly the grouse never established them selves, our forefathers done a good job of making the place look like the old country and liberated many animals and birds, grouse like zebra's and gnu never made it though lol.
there are area's down south where big running dogs can hunt chukur in the high country as well as millions of quail, we have a more lush enviroment where i live but bobwhite,cali, some partridge and brown quail can be found, a big running trials type dog may find it hard getting the work but there is plenty of space and area's of free hunting for those that wish to chase them, we have some very good english setters and even working irish setters that do well in the feild.