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windem bang · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject:

I have seen that done Peter. Maybe it would work well with a good handler ,the man I watched do it was not ! He was running a lab I'd bred in a novice trial and I was embarrssed for him. The poor dog was so confused it didn't know what to do ! The man was using a shepherds mouth whistle and he sounded like the bloody dawn chorus ! I came 2nd in that trial with his bitchs' litter sister and heard the judges comments about the whistle for rights and lefts - they were not at all impressed.

I think the shepherds dog very often has a big advantage over ours - it can see its prey and can understand it is being worked onto it in the way its pack leader wants.

Just my thoughts, I wish I had a few better ones !

Bill T.

Claire · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:42 am Post subject:

I've been reading this thread with great interest because one of my main challenges at the moment is when Whistle is at a distance from me and I am trying to get her to do something. Attrition is certainly what I attempt to use, I'm not saying it always works the way it should Laughing

What Peter has described about a dog's perception of left & right differing from when it is quartering to when it is being sent for a retrieve is EXACTLY the problem I am having at the moment.

I have been working on my marked retrieves with Gary throwing the dummy and Whistle is certainly improving. My own silly fault for not spending enough time on them. Last week I did a blind retrieve, about 150yds, it was fairly easy, or so I thought. Basically it was on a new piece of ground but it was down a track with a crop field on one side and long grasses on the other. I told Whistle to get out and she got completely sidetracked with what I can only assume was a lot of ground scent because at one point she had lost interest in the retrieve altogether Rolling Eyes

To cut a long story short I decided that come hell or high water she must get this retrieve on her own, ie without me going right out to the dummy because I have taught her that whenever I say "get out" there is ALWAYS something there for her to retrieve and so I didn't want to risk her thinking that on this occasion nothing was there. If that makes sense. It probably took me the best part of 15 mins to finally get her to find the dummy and bring it back. Give Whistle her due, once I got her off the ground scent she hunted like a trogan trying to find the dummy, but she was mega confused and I'm sure I confused her even more. I did end up having to walk out towards the dummy and I ended up being about 80yds away from it, just because I couldn't seem to get her to listen to me or understand my hand signals from any greater a distance.

The only good thing to come out of this was, at one point I blew my stop whistle and she did a beautiful stop n sit at about 100 yds away cos I think she was so fed up of running around trying to understand me she was happy to sit so we could both try and think about what the hell we were doing Embarassed

It was very frustrating for me because I was questioning myself as to whether I was doing the right thing and if not why not and what could I do to change it. She appeared to either not be listening to me and just hunting on her own accord desperate to find the dummy, or, when she was listening to me she just wasn't understanding my hand signal telling her to go left.

So how do you sort this out??
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windem bang · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:03 am Post subject:

I have similar problems that arise before 150 yards out on a blind retrieve Claire. I go back to basics and I greatly shorten the distances until the dog shows comprehension and willingness once more then I try to build up again in easy stages .

To be honest if a dog becomes confused/unwilling time after time at long range I cease trying to send it altogether - I value enthusiasm and terrific willingness far more than distance control on a hypothetical bird . This often shows in my dogs but I was never required to send my dogs for a 150 yard blind in a H.P.R. trial so I can't see the point in stressing out an otherwise perfectly good dog by trying in vain to train for that unlikely event.

Bill T.

josie · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:51 am Post subject:

I teach my directions using the US method. (I don't expect to hear much support for it here, but will at least type it out so we have a range of methods explained, variety is the spice of life and all that Laughing

)

I start by teaching mini-3 way casting. In my mind, unless my dog can be sat with a dummy left, right and behind it (within throwing distance) and then be accurately sent for whichever one I choose, then I shouldn't move on. I move on from throwing these dummies in front of the dog, to quietly placing them there, so they become sight blinds. (Dog can see them as they are white and near by, but didn't see them thrown.) It often looks like the dog understands, when it is actually only going for the dummy it has seen thrown. The ultimate test is when I can put a sight blind in one location (back, say), and then throw dummies to left/right - send the dog back and have the dog unhesitatingly go back to the sight blind and not to the just-thrown left or right dummies. This whole exercise takes many weeks, I just did it with Grey and we've moved onto the T drill now.

The T drill is called that because that's the shape of it, more or less - it's actually more of a crucifix shape. Basically imagine a pile of white dummies at about 60 yards away. That is the "back" pile at the top of the crucifix. Imagine a pile to left and right, slightly in front of the back pile - that is the left and right arms of the crucifix.

The goal is to be able to send the dog out, stop it on the cross-over point of the crucifix and send it either back (in the direction it was going anyway), left or right. In order to prevent the dog from anticipating the stop whistle and this affecting the run-out, I allow the dog many more times to just run straight out to the back pile and not be stopped.

For the T drill I start by training the dog to run to the back pile by moving backwards away from the pile until I reach the full 60 yards. I do this until I can come in, cold, first thing in a training session and successfully send the dog to the back pile with no building up. I also get the dog used to sitting at the cross point of the crucifix and sending it back to the same pile from there. This just helps with the back cast. When that's going well, I teach the left - I sit the dog at the cross over point and send left, to the left pile. (Which is only about 30 yards away.) After that, I do right. I would only do one direction per session, to prevent the dog from getting the directions confused.

When the dog can run back, left and right to piles separately, I would combine them - at the moment all this is starting with the dog sitting in the cross over. Only when that's going well, would I introduce the run out to the back pile from the 60 yards, the whistle sit at the cross point and the cast to left, right or back. I just want to see the dog get each direction right, first time, beginning from a run out by my side.

This drill takes a long long time to do without pressure. In the US, the dog would be forced if it no-goed, popped, etc - to ensure the dog is confident and so fully understands, without the use of pressure, it takes a lot longer.

The other point is that the dummy piles should be visible for this drill and if you have long grass or slight contours in the landscape, it helps to mark the piles with a white fence post so the dog runs to that.
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Finncally · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject:

Josie,

Use the same or similar method myself, I tend to call it a 3 way Split,
In fact we had this as one of the tests in the Highland Group Puppy WT last weekend.

Had to read through the post a couple of times, incase you'd missed an important part, but its in there, Very Happy

The pup will connect the back command with the sight of a dummy being thrown, and may not go back unless it see's the dummy, so Its important to do a few, very, short blinds, increasing the distance over a few days, making sure the dog knows "back" means back not "pick up" before starting on the T or 3 way.

If you want to you can also use the same process, to get the dog to go 45 degrees left, 45 degrees right. A 5 way split. Shocked

Claire · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject:

So is there any point in training for long distance blind retrieves then? I thought there was but I'll gladly stop if there isn't Confused

Whistle can be sent for different dummies that have been thrown in different directions. The problem I have is when sending her out for a blind and she goes off in the wrong direction, I cannot seem to get her to understand my commands when I try to point her in the right direction. I have to say that to some extent I want her to find the dummy or bird on her own accord without much, if any, direction from me, but I appreciate that I also need her to be able to take direction when it is needed.

I do use the "there" command and she appears to understand this, but then on the occasion I mentioned above, even when she was in the area of the dummy and I shouted "there" she didn't stop but continued to run on which made me think she didn't understand me afterall Confused

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Hunting is natural, even foxes do it !

Whenever life hands you lemons, grab the salt and add the tequila

Finncally · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Casting at long distances

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject:

Hi Claire, there is a point to training for 150 yard blinds if you have a labrador or if you want to run a H.P.R. in tests. Not even once have I seen a 150 yard blind retrieve required in a H.P.R. Trial - not even when we had Championships for our breeds. I cannot say it has never happened or will never happen but I wouldn't knock my pan in or unneccessarily worry an otherwise good dog about handling at that kind of distance.

I too use very similar training methods to those Josie detailed. Nobody ever gave those methods names when I trained labs but we certainly did that type of training. I still do but I tailor them to suit the individual dog and my present needs. I'm pretty sure Josie does the same, some U.S. training methods don't suit us too well in their original form.

If training to that standard greatly interests you then do it for it is very interesting or at least I find it so but in real life it is often quicker and much quieter just to take the dog near to the fall and quietly work it into the wind from there. That was what happened in H.P.R. trials just a few years prior to me competing in them.

Bill T.

Lisa · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject:

This is a very interesting post and I'm learning alot! I am having similar troubles to Claire in worrying whether Blu is understanding my commands or not.
At training, we were told to call 'lost' when the dog is very near to the object but when I say it to Blu he just returns to me as if I have recalled him! I tend to notice he will find things better if I leave him to it to a certain extent. I can stop him from afar and redirect but left and right he will get but not back, unless he knows we have a done a back retrieve! Question

Should I start him with a word for him to know where it is or do I just leave him to it?
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guy · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject:

don't forget the fourth direction of cast - towards you.
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