Personally, if I was judging a trial I would not put a dog out for tearing a birds skin. Unless I was fairly certain that a bird had been fired at from too close a range or that it had battered into a branch as it fell then, if the ribs on one side or on both were in ,I would probably put the dog out. I would not have to feel sharp rib ends sticking out !
The two most hardmouthed dogs that I ever saw were a lab and a G.S.P.
Both dogs squeezed so hard that the birds (a pigeon and a grouse on a nest full of tiny chicks !) had their guts pushed out of their backsides !
I made a bad mistake with the clicker a couple of months ago. I was experimenting with Buck with dummies and clicked at the wrong instant a couple or three times. He is now often hard mouthed on dummies.
He has however been picking up at least once a week for this whole shooting season . He has found and retrieved many birds ,dead and alive. Only a few days ago two of the pickers up who regularly see him in action remarked upon how very soft mouthed he is - on game !
Beware of clickers and retrieving ,it could go very wrong ! I now have a dog that will leave sawdust trickling out of a dummy yet I would allow anyone to give him any test on fresh shot birds ! With clicker training ,what you click for is what you get...........you can be sure that I will not be doing any more clicking when he has game in his jaws !
A Curly Coat - the dog that beat up Buck last year when he was a pup - has an unusual form of "hard mouth." It eats the heads of pheasants it is sent to retrieve before returning with them !!!
Buck is only the second dog that I have come across that is hard mouthed on dummies and soft mouthed on gamebirds. The other dog was a lab belonging to a friend - she won a novice field trial !
Does anyone else have a dog of this sort ?
Bill T. _________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
Karen that photo is absolutely delightful - such a fantastic expression and without doubt the snipe is still alive - stunning _________________ Sharon Pinkerton
www.bareve.com
Owner & breeder of Field Trial 1st prize winners
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Hard mouthed setters are rare here. Most of the hard mouthed breeds are other HPR breeds like GSP ,GWP etc.
The secret is hide in critical period (until end of the 4 months) you can imprint some behaviors in puppy’s brain in this period. You can teach puppy to hold the live bird without squeeze it as you teach the puppy not bite you in this period. If your dog squeezes the bird leave it to time. If the dog sees more game and do retrieving job more will give up squeezing. My GSP came from Germany at 4,5 months old. He began to kill stray cats. I’ve sent him to my friend and he killed a wolf's puppy, a fox and two rabbits without shot them. My friend took him to woodcock hunting and he made mincemeat from woodcock. He met with many quails in next season and gave up squeezing the birds. Another friend of mine had a GWP in same situation and cured like this. We have many others like this. If the dog sees many birds in the field and very busy with retrieving to each other is not paying much attention to squeezing the birds. Quail is raining at September and October in black sea cost of Turkey. People stretch the net and put light behind the net and quails get into the net like sardine fishes in the sea. In this hunt the dog retrieves from short distance and much birds. If you make the dog retrieve from short distance is meaning the bird will not stay longer in the dog’s mouth and the dog will not have enough time to chew it. The scent is everywhere and the dog is eager to point to other birds after leave the retrieved bird. But I don’t know can you find birds as much as ours.
I think Bill is right. Stay away from using too much clicker but get stick on to positive training. I saw many gundogs became clickomaniac dogs.
The secret is hide in critical period (until end of the 4 months) you can imprint some behaviors in puppy’s brain in this period.
I completely agree. Or at the very least I think that there is a lot of truth in this. I think I have said before that I am in the habit of presenting my hands and wrists for a pup to mouth on. If the pup bites down then the game stops. Yes , I often have punctures all over my hands and wrists ! I continue this game well into the dogs adult life, I still do it with Buck , he believes it is a great privilege to be allowed to "hold my hand." If he holds even a little bit too firmly I withdraw my hand and stop the game, the privilege is withdrawn. Whenever possible , as the dog becomes big enough to do so, I hold a fresh shot or even live pigeon or partridge in my hand and invite the dog to hold both my hand and the bird at the same time.
It would be impossible to measure just how much good this does but it can't be doing any harm - my dogs dont bite birds.
I have often been "poo-pood " for doing this by other gundog trainers but why cease doing what works for you ?
Up to present I have worked border collies, springer spaniels, cocker spaniels, labs, and two breeds of H.P.R. without having one single hardmouthed dog. It surely cannot all be down to luck ? Breeding has a big part to play but I am a belt and braces man - I like to take care of the nurture side of things too.
I also agree with Sinan that giving pups game early on in their lives is a good thing. I first began doing this through ignorance and then I noticed the benefits....I have deliberately done this ever since.
Bill T. _________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
Hi Bill;
You said exactly the same what I would like to say.
I would like to ask you about springers and cockers. How they suffer all day hunting? My spaniel is getting tired if I hunt too long. Our woodcock hunting usually begin at 08.00 am until about 16.00 pm. Our dogs have to non-stop walk and run about 7-8 hours in a hunting day. My spaniel is not coming working stock. I wonder if a good field line springer or cocker can manage the hunt like this all day long? Is there any difference between the endurance of cockers and springers?
Hi Sinan, I do not consider myself very knowledgeable about springers or cockers. My first ever spaniel was a show bred springer. He seemed to be able to work an entire 9.30 a.m. to 4 p.m. day for pheasants in woodland. This was with about an hours break at about 12.30 p.m. to 1.30 p.m.
This is probably not as good as it sounds because his speed over the ground was not as fast as the work bred springers. My next spaniel was a workbred springer from a "rescue" situation . He worked about the same hours but faster and seemingly tirelessly.
At present I have my first ever cocker . He is faster and "harder going" (more determined to get over, under or through any cover) than my springers were but then he is field trial bred. I do not know how well he would stand up to an entire day of hunting............I am not physically able to do that with a dog any more. My guess would be that he would do it but that he would learn to "pace" himself - he would cut back on speed and save energy to last through the day.
I prefer this cocker to the springers I have had, he is a "natural" at just about everything ! Hunting, retrieving, swimming - they all come easily to him.
I suggest that to get better information you should join the "Gundog and Bird Dog Training Forums"
This is a British run Forum that has several members much more knowledgeable about spaniels than I am.
Bill T.
_________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
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I continue this game well into the dogs adult life, I still do it with Buck , he believes it is a great privilege to be allowed to "hold my hand." If he holds even a little bit too firmly I withdraw my hand and stop the game, the privilege is withdrawn. Whenever possible , as the dog becomes big enough to do so, I hold a fresh shot or even live pigeon or partridge in my hand and invite the dog to hold both my hand and the bird at the same time.