Wheelback - is the hound term to what Mike explained where the topline makes a very definite rise/arch across the loin making the topline "very slightly" curved - not like the arched loins that you get on the Greyhounds and Whippets though.
Thanks Sharon, so whats the difference between wheelback and roached back And to answer your question as to why some hunt kennels are moving to a `wheelback' would that be to increase a turn of speed ( on the lines of the speed dogs )
I have a soft spot for the Brittany ( mainly because I can enjoy their work while their handlers are pulling their hair out )
I can understand the reasoning to build a well muscled/small levered `power house' as a hunting dog, but I still can't see the logic in using a horse designed for pulling as the design blueprint, its abit like building a Formula One car on the designs of a John Deere, but then again dog breeders are a weird bunch ( Although some of them have good taste in music )
If certain conformation characteristics are determined by breed (historic), and certain characteristics are determined by the work they do ( which may be slightly different due to their location now) How does this balance out for the future Given that show judges may be attending trials to put function into form, will the function they see be representative for the breed, or will we see a divergence of trials to suit particular types of `historic' hunting similar to groupings on the continent, to validate their conformation
Peter
Personally I don't believe in sticking slavishly to what our great grand dads bred. The world has moved on since then.
I don't believe in breed specific trials , if a dog is good enough it will beat the opposition. Some types of ground may suit one breed or one hunting style more than another. I don't mind at all if an owner of a close hunting dog enters it only in cover work trials that suit it . I would mind a lot though if those same trials were restricted to close hunting dogs only.
If a handler is good enough to pull in a long range hunter and win a tight cover trial with it then good luck to him. His dog has proved it can handle both wide open ground and tight cover - that would be the kind of dog I would want. A real all rounder.
If I had a dog that could only win in breed specific trials then I would consider it to be a second rate dog.
Bill T. _________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
Wheelback - is the hound term to what Mike explained where the topline makes a very definite rise/arch across the loin making the topline "very slightly" curved - not like the arched loins that you get on the Greyhounds and Whippets though.
Thanks Sharon, so whats the difference between wheelback and roached back And to answer your question as to why some hunt kennels are moving to a `wheelback' would that be to increase a turn of speed ( on the lines of the speed dogs )
Peter
From what I was told by the huntsman the wheelback on the hounds are very slight and barely noticeable whereas a roached back is more extreme rounding of the spine. Certainly the hounds that hunt with the Cottesmore and Fernie are only "slightly" rounded over the loins and I would think to the average person they would barely notice it wasn't a flat topline.
As for why - it has to do with speed/turning ability as they would need to do when actually hunting but not the extreme speed or turning ability needed with a Greyhound so they wouldn't need the greater rounding over the loins that they have.
JMO mind and I could be wrong _________________ Sharon Pinkerton
www.bareve.com
Owner & breeder of Field Trial 1st prize winners
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Given that show judges may be attending trials to put function into form, will the function they see be representative for the breed, or will we see a divergence of trials to suit particular types of `historic' hunting similar to groupings on the continent, to validate their conformation
Continental trials were based on English traditions up to the late 19th century ie on paired partridge in the spring. In 1883 Karl Brandt wrote in the " Illustrierten Jagdzeitung " ( a hunting magazine ) " at field competitions which should be part of a breeding programme, the dogs will hopefully prove that they have not lost their natural hunting ability during the years when only looks dictated breeding ( pre 1878 ) . The field trials held so far are useless in influencing the breeding programme of all round German dogs because they have only tested their ability to hunt in spring pointing tests."
One has to remember the influence of Darwins theory on selection for breeding only became influential at this time. Before this there were no organised breeding programmes. With more knowledge on genetic influences a structured programme for the testing for all round working ability combined with conformation assessments became essential for breeding the best to the best. It also became acknowledged a formulated pattern of training was required to exploit and retain the hunting characteristics in a breed.
The UK with its specialist emphasis in gundog breeds retained its trials on paired partridge and other game bird species were added when driven shooting became more accessible to the middle class .
The trials for HPR's have always been influenced by these tradition for dogs working reared birds while in the rest of the world with a few exceptions like the US with planted birds, all work is on wild species.
One could suggest the true definition of a UK field champion is a dog who can work reared and wild birds. Purists may insist a true champion in pointers and setters has won both grouse and partridge/pheasant trials.
HPR's are not only field dogs but this is all we test for in the UK while other countries such as Australia and New Zealand are now more willing to protect the mutli game instincts in these breeds.
Has the UK HPR field specialist dogma influenced breed type ? An example can be found in the GLP where their are 2 distinct types.
Quote:
will the function they see be representative for the breed,
An Englishman will say yes while a German will go home shaking his head thinking why no tests for prolonged swimming and tracking _________________ Home of pure German Longhairs ,Ch HV's and Ch GSP's.
Thanks again Sharon, I surmised as much but its always good to have it clarified from those that know I've increased my vocabulary two fold and no longer need to call it the wiggly bit
Langhaar wrote:
Quote:
...why no tests for prolonged swimming and tracking
Think we will have to run our trials over two days then Brenda and go for a `McNab Trial' , itinerary:
Day 1. A little jaunt across the moors to hunt some grouse.
3 ish break for lunch
Move to Loch and hunt for duck
Day 2. Early morning stalk.
Breakfast ( Rounding up all those that drank to much the night before )
Off to wood to hunt some more feather and fur
3 ish finish Trial
Congregate in the lodge for a fine supper and award the prizes.... " Sadly I have to announce that the only competitor that made it through both days was the Shetland pony bred to look like hunting dog" But on the positive side the two attending show judges improved their understanding considerably, they will now make sure that they only award dogs that make `clip-clop' sounds on the move, and fart when you pick their feet up
Peter
only award dogs that make `clip-clop' sounds on the move, and fart when you pick their feet up
Peter
You've not added the most important factors Peter , only if the shetland pony is kennel club registered and if its handler is
a a kennel club member
b is a friend of the show judges
c if the handler can offer them something back in return _________________ Home of pure German Longhairs ,Ch HV's and Ch GSP's.
only award dogs that make `clip-clop' sounds on the move, and fart when you pick their feet up
Peter
You've not added the most important factors Peter , only if the shetland pony is kennel club registered and if its handler is
a a kennel club member
b is a friend of the show judges
c if the handler can offer them something back in return
Ooooooooooooooh You are norty .........but how very true !
Bill T.
_________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
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And to answer your question as to why some hunt kennels are moving to a `wheelback' would that be to increase a turn of speed 
)
dog breeders are a weird bunch 
( Although some of them have good taste in music 
