Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: HPR breeds key characteristics
Hello,
I have unsuccessfully looked for a good thread that discusses the key working characteristics, strengths and weaknesses of HPR breeds including pointers and setters. Ideally going beyond the "which breed is better question" (which does not make much sense) and focusing on how they are similar or different, what are they most suited for, etc.
We all know of the basic stuff (i.e. that pointers and setters run wider, HPRs more versatile) but there must be many other interesting things, that the less experienced would be very interested in.
Please point me in the right direction if you know of good discussions covering this. Otherwise, maybe some of the more experienced members of the forum would not mind to share their experience.
Many thanks,
Santiago
NB: I have some experience with brittanys and pointers, but with very few dogs. I am not writing anything not out of laziness but because I feel that what would be most helpful is to keep this as objective as possible and generalizing from just a few dogs does not achieve that. Also I think the more interesting comments probably come from people that have seen most or many different HPR breeds working which I have not.
Last edited by santiago on Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
I haven't had many pointing breeds myself, I've had two brits and four G.S.P.'S . Other than that I have trained a pointer and I was a trainer for every H.P.R. breed that turned up for monthly training classes. I have seen most H.P.R. breeds at training classes but not actually working.
I doubt if forum members will be very forthcoming on your question for fear of upsetting the enthusiasts of other breeds.
Maybe if you tried splitting things up into hunting ability- - range differences between the breeds. Attitude to cover. Responsiveness to command. etc.
Pointing - is it already there and how much development/encouragement does it need. Prone to stickiness or not. etc.
Retrieving - very willing, not so willing or virtually non-existent. Ease of steadiness training. Soft mouth or incidence of hard mouth. etc.
I think you yourself will have to start the ball rolling on this topic - I think I'd like my head to remain attached to my neck !
Bill T. _________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
However, I just think that one can be passionate about the HPR breed he/she owns and at the same time try to be objective. I really do not think it makes sense to claim one HPR is the best, because that assumes everybody is looking for the same thing in a dog. It is true though that people might disagree with this and I apologize in advance if anybody is upset by comments made here.
It is also true, that it is probably unhelpful to avoid giving an opinion to start with. So I will try to give mine based on my limited experience (which I describe too below, to be very clear).
Experience: Brittany and pointer owner. Have seen maybe 25 Brittanys, 10 pointers, 10 labradors and 10 other HPRs working over 20 years, mostly rough shooting and in driven days and in a few FT in France.
Brittany
Hunting ability: Ranges wide (just short of pointers and setters), therefore naturally better in open terrain than in heavy cover. Very passionate hunter with high endurance. Takes initiative. Strong nose. Adapts fast to different quarry and way of hunting. Obedient.
Pointing: Point not as intense as a pointer, does not hold point naturally for long periods without training (as opposed to pointers). On the other hand, less likely to point old scent than pointers are.
Retrieving: Moderate natural retrieve instinct in general, fast learner though. Can retrieve in water but not the best swimmer (mine just does not enjoy it - maybe lack of exposure and not to be generalized). I have seen Brittanys that learn to sit in a peg for driven shooting, but probably not easily to the standard required in most driven days in the UK. Hard mouth not a common issue.
Other: Good character, easy to train, lots of energy, good interaction with family and kids. Mine barks easily (maybe lack of training?). He has also had problems of injuries in his paws pads (not sure this can be generalized).
Again, I probably need to be corrected in most of the above (do not mind at all), these are just some thoughts to see if people find it is worth contributing.
If we get some replies I offer to compile a summary at the end, editing this post.
Santiago
Last edited by santiago on Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Where the Brittany is concerned I agreed with your comments on the retrieve section. I disagreed with your experiences on parts of the other sections.
Range , I would say is variable from "line" to "line" of dogs and also is variable among dogs of very similar breeding but that may be down to "nurture." As open ground and as woodland cover dogs I think Brits score highly. I have reservations about Brits on grouse moors .......how many grouse trials have Brits won ? I only know of two Brit won grouse trials but there may be more ??? I think the brit, while very willing and a good running dog is handicapped by its size on grouse moors. When it encounters high, rank heather, the brit has to proceed in a series of bounds and leaps. This tires any dog ,the brit is no exception but it also has to expend more energy than the bigger breeds to cover that kind of bushy ground condition.
I'm not too sure about the "obedient " bit. This depends a lot on the handler of course but from my own experience I have found 3 out of the 4 G.S.P.'s I have trained to be more naturally "with me" than the brits. The brits needed more work to get that feeling of "oneness."
Pointing - I found brits to be very "natural" pointers. I hardly had to add any "nurture" at all to have my two brits point for as long as I was ever likely to wish for. In fact I had a problem for a while with my half American brit being "sticky." Much of that was probably my fault , she was the first pointing dog I owned and I made too much fuss of the point because it fascinated me.
I found just the opposite from you and found that unproductive pointing sometimes was a problem - again probably caused by my making too much fuss of the point. I have had few problems with this since I changed my training style following that first bitch. It took me many months to eliminate that problem at the time.
Other - agreed with good character, disagreed with easy to train, few handlers can train a brit to high standard. Good brits tend to have better than average handlers in my experience or maybe I've been seeing the wrong brits !
Agreed with lots of energy ! and agreed about being good with family.
My brits rarely barked when I had them but the one my son now has is now a barker - a lack of discipline ???
I believe the Brittany to be one of the most natural hunting dogs on the planet and one of the most natural pointing dogs too. I.M.O. as a breed its weak points are its independant nature that can make it hard to train unless you can tune in with the dog and a lack of love of retrieving - at least on dummies !
I too would be interested in reading the opinions of others. I think I would summarise by saying that I.M.O. the brit is an outstanding breed but not one for the average beginner handler. I see very few - in fact none at all at shoots up this way. The breeds I do see at shoots are G.S.P.'s , Weimies, G.W.H.P.'s , Wirehaired Viszlas ( a breed I'm seeing more and more of - I like them) and Viszlas.
Bill T. _________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
I suppose some of the experiences will be based on the specific dogs people have contact with as individuals within a breed, there is an awful lot of difference from one dog to another. _________________ These are my personal opinions and do not represent in any way the views of the WCGB.
Hunting........obsessive
Retrieving.....obsessive if you can get it to retrieve in the first place
Obedience.....what's that
Pointing.........good, will point anything ie birds, cats, rabbits, fish and anything else that moves
Water retrieves.....see above
Best little dogs on the planet if you want a laugh, friend and hunting companion BUT only if you don't mind going hungry when you rely on one to fill the pot.
Carry on Bill, I don't mind you telling the truth about them _________________ Jan
Ghillie, hips 8/9=17 and Merlin, hips 9/9=18 My opinions are brilliant, intelligent [sometimes] and MINE alone! If you want one I can give it to you. Sean Bean has wrinkles just like Bill!!!
Not by me you won't Most of what you say about them I agree with......and I've got two of the little blighters, glutton for punishment thats me
_________________ Jan
Ghillie, hips 8/9=17 and Merlin, hips 9/9=18 My opinions are brilliant, intelligent [sometimes] and MINE alone! If you want one I can give it to you. Sean Bean has wrinkles just like Bill!!!
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